Need some newbie advice with DAWs?

[James Melody]

I wasn't saying that to you, sorry if took it that way. Was more saying that given your first post the recommended path (from us) is or should be pretty obvious.

Gotcha. Thanks for the advice

[LawrenceF]

No problem.

[EnGee]

Or maybe a notation software like Notion or Dorico:
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/d ... orico.html

[DJ Warmonger]

OK, thanks. Is this using VSTs or not?

What is your problem with VST exactly? All the plugins in existence, including sampled instruments, are distributed as VST or other format. This is how it works

Ableton for instance has its native sampler with a bunch of stock libraries, but that's nowhere enough for instrumental music production. All the Kontakt libraries and others are wrapped in a VST, even if all they do is playing samples from a folder or archive.

[shidostrife]

Many DAWs come with basic sample player with bread and butter libraries that cover most instruments you'll need for composing. Cubase has halion sonic, studio one has presence, tracktion has collective, etc.
Yes, these are plugins, but they have tons of sounds in one plugin and you won't need to install any other instrument plugins if you don't want to. You want drums, load halion sonic and search for drums, you want pianos, load the same plugin and search for pianos, guitars? same, strings? same, etc.

Ah. Thank you. I got some helpful replies, but this one was the most helpful of all, so I've responded to it first.

So instead of having one plugin for each instrument, I can have one plugin which provides a whole bunch of other instruments. In theory that sounds great.

But what about using my own samples that I have on my hard drive? Will I need a plugin to use them, or can I just load them directly in the program. It's my own samples that I'm really interested in being able to load quickly.

Gotcha, in that case, you would need a sampler. Those I mentioned above are player only, you can't use your own sample in them.

*I know you'd really want to stay away from VST's, but there's a limit to that when features are in the equation.

Some DAWs has built in sampler, and there are also free sampler VST available, with limitations. Cubase, Tracktion, Ableton Live has built-in sampler. There's also the free Grace and TX16Wx. The limitations are usually no velocity layers and no round robins, search each one for their specific limitations.

If you want a full fledged sampler, there are Kontakt, Halion (not Halion Sonic), Structure, etc. They have full capabilities and usually comes with GBs of usable factory libraries. I'd recommend Kontakt. You must've heard of the name before. It's kind of the industry-standard. Many companies sell sample libraries in Kontakt format, and let's not forget all the freebies.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

You only need to load the instruments you might want to use, once. Then, just save the project as a template, with a shortcut saved to the desktop.

OK, thanks. Is this using VSTs or not? And does it make any difference which DAW I use? If all the DAWs are about the same speed, I guess I'll just randomly pick any DAW (maybe Cubase) and take it from there.

The vst thing seems to be a bugbear of yours, though it may be more to do with a misunderstanding. Vst, as invented by Steinberg, stands for virtual studio technology. It is no more/less real than the instruments that are being emulated in the hardware keyboards/workstations that you are used to using.

The real issue you have is in the thinking that this same virtualisation in computers might slow down your workflow. While it is true that many options can sometimes get in the way, this is nothing unique to a computer daw (read: workstation), or a physical keyboard workstation.

What I am suggesting to you is that you might have to spend a little while in considering a template that suits your desired workflow, but that after that everything will be running with a single mouse-click.

So....

You don't want to "randomly pick any DAW", but rather, choose a daw that already comes with a good suite of instruments that normally make up your palette. In your case, Cubase would be one option as it comes with a great selection of tools capable of great sound quality, and with the ability for you to use your own samples.

Then you start to set up a template.

If you are using a daw that comes with a multi-timbral sampler/rompler, then you could set up a template that puts your most commonly used instruments on separate tracks. Maybe you put piano on track 1, strings on 2, flute on 3, etc. Then you load up a drum sampler and place a kit on track 4, some percussion on 5 etc. Lastly, you might want to load up a synth for a pad on 6, and a moog-style lead on 7.

Once you have this project set up, you can save as a template, and place a shortcut on your desktop. From there, anytime you are ready to compose all you need to do is double-click the shortcut and it will load up with all those instruments set on their own tracks, ready to go. Recording your music will then simply be about clicking the track of the instrument you want to record, and hitting the record button. Everything will be tracked in midi which will give you the flexibility to edit, later on. Just remember to use 'save as' so as not to write over the template.You could even design different templates for different styles of composition, be it classical, soundtrack, rock etc.

As I said, it's minimal setup time to achieve what you need.

[thecontrolcentre]

First of all thank you to everyone for your responses. I wasn't expecting so many so quickly! I really appreciate it.

I am ignoring the rude people here.

I likely won't be back here tomorrow but I will try to check back on Sunday.

Many DAWs come with basic sample player with bread and butter libraries that cover most instruments you'll need for composing. Cubase has halion sonic, studio one has presence, tracktion has collective, etc.
Yes, these are plugins, but they have tons of sounds in one plugin and you won't need to install any other instrument plugins if you don't want to. You want drums, load halion sonic and search for drums, you want pianos, load the same plugin and search for pianos, guitars? same, strings? same, etc.

Ah. Thank you. I got some helpful replies, but this one was the most helpful of all, so I've responded to it first.

So instead of having one plugin for each instrument, I can have one plugin which provides a whole bunch of other instruments. In theory that sounds great.

But what about using my own samples that I have on my hard drive? Will I need a plugin to use them, or can I just load them directly in the program. It's my own samples that I'm really interested in being able to load quickly.

You talk of composing and MIDI, so I'd go with Cubase. Has the most powerful MIDI editing tools.

Thanks for that. I will strongly consider Cubase.

You can set up your external kit and use its sounds and run it like a VSTi.

Oh, I had no idea you could do that! That is very interesting and I'll look into that.

The richness of say my experience is not separable from the complexity of the setup. I love setting up, sound design, creating the orchestration with all of this tech. This is actually a plugins forum and you're dismissing the whole process as too inconvenient.

My apologies. We're all different. I am a simple musician who likes simple tools, so perhaps this isn't the best place to ask, and I probably don't belong here. In retrospect I may well not have made this thread, but it is done now. Sorry.

My advice for you is just to approach this with an open mind.

Thanks, I will try to. This DAW stuff is all new to me.

Sounds like the OP wants a standalone sampler.

Thanks, though I'm not sure a standalone sampler is the right solution for me.

Since a standalone sampler doesn't seem to have more samples than my own keyboard, it would seem more logical to hook up my keyboard as a VSTi.

But then I don't want to be confined to the samples of just one particular device and would like to be able to buy more samples and expand my library. I also notice that standalone samplers seem very associated with drum loops, dance music, and DJing - which is not the kind of music I make.

not until you respond and engage. All too often newcomers don't invest sufficient energy to accompany the requests that they make.

That's fair enough. I wasn't expecting so many replies already, this forum obviously moves very quickly. Many online conversations I get involved with can go weeks, months, or years between people responding.

To the OP welcome to the forum even if you don't respond as soon as some would like or not.

Thank you

Actually, I though I came back pretty quickly, less than 24 hours after my OP. I posted it last night before bed. Then, like most people, I had to get up and go to work in the morning, and today has been a busy work day, especially with it being a Friday.

I don't spend my whole day online. Who does? Like most people, I get a bit of time in the evening to come online. Maybe the men in this forum all go home in their lunchbreaks, boot up their computers and check their emails? I'm not like that. I leave the internet at home and get on with my life. I made a special point of coming back here after 1 day because I had left a message and wanted to see if anyone had replied.

Added to this, I'm a very slow reader, and replying to this is taking me quite a long time… I don't know how the people of this forum would treat a disabled or elderly person but probably not with a great deal of patience.

Use hardware keyboards with the daw (?) and don't use any plugin instruments. Problem solved? Not exactly rocket science.

Thanks... though it is rocket science if you're me. I hadn't heard of VSTis before today. I'm afraid my passion is writing music, not using technology. I'm here to learn.

So, given this, what route do you wish to go?

Hi Bustedfist, thanks for all your info, and your patience with me. As I said, I am a newbie so I do need to take this fairly slow as it's all quite confusing to me at this stage. Much of your reply has confused me (the latter part) but I'm going to try and re-read it and understand it as best as I can. It might sound ridiculous to you, but I'm not entirely sure yet what "patches" are, but I'm figuring it all out slowly.

I will definitely take on board what you said about hard drives, thanks.

So, you mentioned various different routes. It seems people are recommending that I hook up my regular keyboard(s) as VSTi(s). That's something I'm happy to do if I have to, though I had been hoping to move away from the keyboards and do everything on computer if possible, both because it means I can use a wider sample library, and also because it's a more elegant way of making music.

I should mention that I've already bought a MIDI keyboard controller to do this, so now I just need to think about software. I bought a 61-key MIDI keyboard that is nice, simple, lightweight, and slim, with as few controls as possible - I wanted something fairly portable I can put on my lap in front of the computer to enter the notes. There's no way I could do that with my big Yamaha keyboard.

One thing I definitely do not want to do is just record tracks onto the computer without MIDI. Everything has to be MIDI so I can change the notes either immediately after, or decades later. I want to be able to adjust the properties of every note, including the duration, release, portamento, vibrato, and of course change the sample (using different velocities, durations, variations). Then I'll also want to change things like reverb, DSPs, panning, EQ, and filter envelopes. So I want everything to be MIDI rather than actual recordings.

Or you can decide on a DAW that fits your needs and take the time to use it (and yes, VSTs) fluently. People who have done this and put in the time and effort can work very quickly. There are templates, macros, screensets, shortcuts and various other things in the DAW to speed up your workflow. But you have to learn them before you can make them do your bidding.

I would be a fool if I randomly picked a DAW, invested months/years of my life building up skills in it, only to discover that it is fundamentally incapable of working the way I want it to work. Better surely to go online and talk to people first about the way I intend to work, and see if anyone can recommend a DAW to fit my needs?

First step for you is to stop saying you don't want to do this or that, and learn what the possibilities are. Because I can tell you, they are way more flexible and wondrous than what you are doing now.

Well I guess every composer is different and has different requirements. As for me, I'd say my big requirement is speed and fluidity of working, not having anything slowing me down.

If, for example, I was playing the piano and I found my hand going higher up the keys, I would not want to have to stop and "load" more octaves. That would interrupt the creative flow and by the time I'd loaded them, I would no longer be in the swing of the music. Even a millisecond's pause can interrupt the natural rhythm when you are composing music.

When I have a musical idea in my head, I want to be able to instantly "get it out". I don't want to be lumbered with settings and controls. I just want to be able to pick my instrument and start playing, with as little loading time as possible. Currently, I can do that on the keyboard. If it's impossible with a DAW, then I won't use a DAW.

Thanks for this. The software seems interesting, though as for the keyboard, I cannot use mini keys and need a bare minimum of 61 keys, which even then seems very claustrophobic. I am heavily into keyboard playing, I have huge hands and need lots of space. (Besides which I've already bought my MIDI controller.)

You only need to load the instruments you might want to use, once. Then, just save the project as a template, with a shortcut saved to the desktop.

OK, thanks. Is this using VSTs or not? And does it make any difference which DAW I use? If all the DAWs are about the same speed, I guess I'll just randomly pick any DAW (maybe Cubase) and take it from there.

Any sampler could load as many samples from your collection as you wish. The only limit is the RAM in your computer. You don't seem to understand what a sampler is.

[Rappo Clappo]

Because he's a troll :sighs:

[DJ Warmonger]

Any sampler could load as many samples from your collection as you wish. The only limit is the RAM in your computer. You don't seem to understand what a sampler is.

This. Apparently OP never worked with any sampler, VST or DAW and tries to avoid a problem which does not exist.

[bustedfist]

@James Melody

How well do you work with a score editor?

I saw your response and have at least a chapter I want to type to lay out exactly what you need to accomplish what you want all different ways. I ask about score because it could be an easier method is available.

I running around today with holiday prep, hopefully I can get some time tonight to fill you in. I'll look for your score answer first.

Nate

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

hopefully I can get some time tonight to fill you in

Is that why your fist is busted?

[fedexnman]

Budget ????? On the cheap something​ like Reaper and TX16wx (non free version) no included sounds or you could go the KVR USED Marketplace route Reason8or7 license ... No VST but that'll give you bread and butter sounds and alot of different Sampler instruments to use are included ... So that's probably $120 to $150 option there for those 2 choices ... There is also Reaper/Redux ,. Reaper/DiscoDSP Bliss as options too ... would also keep you in that $120-160 ballpark ... You could run the demo of Reaper and use the free TX16WX in the meantime ... On the spend a load of money side . Native Instruments Komplete and what ever VST Host you want let's just say Cubase ... $1000+ on up ... So basically you need a GOOD Sampler VST then a host to run it in ... If you are MAC then Logic $199 has a sampler too and instruments ..

[hivkorn]

if you don't want to load VST , maybe you should consider to play with GM soundbank ?
maybe go for something like guitar pro ?

[bustedfist]

hopefully I can get some time tonight to fill you in

Is that why your fist is busted?

No, this is.

http://www.soundclick.com/members/defau ... ID=3562081

[bustedfist]

I have a little time, I'll start with the first scenario.

If you want a full orchestration template with everything loaded and all you have to do is enable the desired track to switch from instrument, nothing else, this is what you need. This is how pro composers do it without having resource issues or any kind of issues. They run a master system that has large amounts of memory and at least an i7 chip, if not multiple. They have a drive setup where one is for OS and programs only. The second is for projects and a third for streaming samples to native DAW plugs. This is minimum. Streaming sample drives are the only ones showing great benefit from being SSD. There are hybrid HDDs that are supposed to be good, as well. This alone is more than most will ever use, but other things are needed to spread the load of a full orchestra template.

The Pros have slave machines they load VSTi's on and use VEPro to port them to the master. The VSTi's have all the power and RAM of the slave to use, minimum for the OS. Again, here a multi-drive setup, one for OS and plugs and VEPro and another/s for sample streaming to the plug. The number of slaves depend on the need of resources.

You need an Audio and MIDI interface to connect monitors for audio and connect controllers via MIDI.

This is to work completely in the box with everything ready to go at your whim for full orchestration.

The master system itself, has to have hardware that plays well with each other. If not, you'll have issues regardless. It'd be like a band playing at different tempos, to put it simply.

All of this takes a bit of dosh to set up from scratch and be plug and play, so to speak. It might be a large factor in what you're able to do.

This is where the other scenarios I mentioned come in. I'll try to cover them later.