what you do when you dream to be as good as your favs musicians....

[jancivil]

for years my sig was "The measure of talent..."

I think for a lot of things it probably makes sense to compare yourself to leaders if you are trying to be competitive, which is all I meant by "selling records." If you want the status of your heroes, whether that be in terms of record sales or some other metric of notoriety, then it's probably going to be helpful to have a plan to go with your "dreams" that includes some sort of, however derived, metrics that tell you whether or not your plan is working. What that plan is depends quite a bit on who your heroes are though.

When I was starting out, I compared myself to one young classical guitarist because he was very good and I too would love to be very good. It was quite clear to me his status, which was a touring musician in constant struggle to survive, all of this work, all the years of woodshedding, to be out there worrying about the basics. Eventually I did not feature myself as so good that it was going to be worth that, after a bit of the life playing really beat venues... Then I wanted to create my own musical world per se, after I figured I had a nascent sort of my own voice musically. I wasn't specifically interested to do music which was going to sell much. However there was no terrific dearth of approbation in this small world I inhabited.

So I don't confound the two things, fame & sales with musicianship.

A hero of mine musically is Edgard Varèse. He didn't even have any output in the middle of his career. He appears to have pretty much lived off his wife, a well-known literary figure. Not a whole lot of approbation coming for what he did. Debussy thought he was great, you know. One of the more forward thinkers in music. This is what that might end up being in the world. OTOH Frank Zappa wanted to sell records so he designed a thing to do that. I'm not all that, I know myself a little bit.

[ghettosynth]

for years my sig was "The measure of talent..."

I think for a lot of things it probably makes sense to compare yourself to leaders if you are trying to be competitive, which is all I meant by "selling records." If you want the status of your heroes, whether that be in terms of record sales or some other metric of notoriety, then it's probably going to be helpful to have a plan to go with your "dreams" that includes some sort of, however derived, metrics that tell you whether or not your plan is working. What that plan is depends quite a bit on who your heroes are though.

When I was starting out, I compared myself to one young classical guitarist because he was very good and I too would love to be very good. It was quite clear to me his status, which was a touring musician in constant struggle to survive, all of this work...

Status above doesn't necessarily mean socioeconomic status. Since you compared yourself to him, he had a "status" that you envied in some sense of the word. As I said, "selling records" was just meant to be an off the cuff euphemism for any form of external validation. That could be, literally, "selling records", or, figuratively, by getting whatever low-paying/non-paying gigs/respect that only classical guitarists of note are able to get.

To me, the idea of dreaming about being as good as some musical hero is about as valuable to my workflow as the idea of dreaming about how someone else watches TV is valuable to how I watch TV.

The point was simply that my advice may not be useful to you if your goal contains any desire for external acknowledgement. There's really not a discussion here. You're projecting too much of a literal seriousness into my comment.

On Edit: That sounds more argumentative than I intended. I'm just not interested in belaboring the distinction, it wasn't important.

[kinwie]

[quote="ghettosynth"][/quote]

ghettmammu... I come to bargain

[Nielzie]

Lower your standards on choosing your fav musicians.

[kinwie]

The way to get better is to compare yourself with your betters. Not that music is a sport, but you don't know how well you run unless you compare times.

Yes, well said, I'm agree with this!
It just that some people too scared to compare to something else. An open mind is the key
Just my 2 cents...

[jancivil]

Yeah, I stopped short of stating that bluntly, but I find it weird to really feature how you'd believe comparison to more accomplished musicians is suspect. In favor of, what, purity? (Comparing yourself to celebrities is rather another matter.)

Another Only At KVR kinda thing. Fine if you have no aspirations but, ghetto for one has proved to be competitive with opinions about music. NG: Don't Work. You're in it or you ain't.

[ghettosynth]

Yeah, I stopped short of stating that bluntly, but I find it weird to really feature how you'd believe comparison to more accomplished musicians is suspect. In favor of, what, purity? (Comparing yourself to celebrities is rather another matter.)

Another Only At KVR kinda thing. Fine if you have no aspirations but, ghetto for one has proved to be competitive with opinions about music. NG: Don't Work. You're in it or you ain't.

I think that you're confusing some things. I'm "judgemental" about music, absolutely. I judge all of the music that I listen to and I absolutely have expectations and those expectations cover a wide range of criterion depending on the style of the music and even the purpose of the music. I probably am willing to buy 1 out of 100 house records that I listen to because other people's output isn't as good as "my favorite musicians" and if they want my money they should try harder to sound like what I want to play. I judge my own music as well, but not with respect to how it holds up against other musicians, simply, do I like what it is and do I enjoy listening to my own output.

It's not incongruent that I judge others differently than I judge myself because we are talking about two distinct activities, listening vs creating. If others expect me to like their creations then they are trying to "sell records", so to speak. That's their thing, not mine. If they share them without any expectations then they won't really care what I, or anyone else thinks. Of course, creating your own music requires listening to it, but, it's a substantially different process on how you arrive at what you're listening to. By definition, I like what I create, so I enjoy listening to it. If I don't like what I create, then I stop creating that type of thing and adjust my process until I do like what I create. As convoluted as that sounds, it's not about comparing myself to "musicians."

But I'm not competitive about the music that I produce. I don't seek validation externally in any real sense of the word. I only care about enjoying the process of creating it. In fact, that's a part of what I'm saying, if I find myself being competitive and stressing over whether my work conforms to some ideal, I just change what I'm doing so that I feel relaxed again. That's its purpose in my life, I make music like some people watch TV. Have you ever seen me share ANYTHING here, ever?

I'm trying to work right now, but not on music, am I stressed about that, you f**king bet. I hate working on Sunday, especially this Sunday, I should be dancing in the park, but I'm not, because my customers aren't going to be happy if I just do whatever the f**k I feel like and this particular work is hard and annoying. I don't like my hobbies to be too much work, so when I enjoy my hobbies, I dispense with the expectations that it be anything in particular and just make sure that I'm enjoying the journey of getting from the start of the "music making show", to the end of it.

[Hink]

for years my sig was "The measure of talent is not a measure against the talents of others but a measure of one's own growth as an artist", I completely stand by that so I respectfully disagree with you. I need not be concerned with comparing myself to others, I need only to keep an open mind and learn from them. One can learn from anyone, an abstract concept like "betters" imo has nothing to do with learning.

You're disagreeing with 'comparison with people who are more accomplished at music' as though it's my entire conception which means you're disagreeing with your own misconstruction in order to provide a launchpad for that pontificating.

EDIT: If your mind is truly open, it's open to the possibility that you can learn from people that are more accomplished because of that specifically.

to the point in your edit, I can learn from anyone without having to put a label or a degree to it like betters, or more accomplished which if you choose to use such words so be it. In order for me to use such language I have view myself along some scale. More accomplished than some less accomplished than others, better than some, less better than others and if I were on the exact same path as someone else I suppose this would be possible. However my accomplishments and anothers accomplishments are different, the world has opened up and I daily deal with people of many different genres, many different styles, many different instruments, many different backgrounds and in fact so many variables it seems for me at least the only purpose comparing myself to others would only bog me down. That doesn't stop me from learning from them but I just choose not to compare myself to others, I'm on my own path and I'm content making progress at my own pace, as long as I see myself going forward I'm good

[kinwie]

Peace guys...

[jancivil]

for years my sig was "The measure of talent is not a measure against the talents of others but a measure of one's own growth as an artist", I completely stand by that so I respectfully disagree with you. I need not be concerned with comparing myself to others, I need only to keep an open mind and learn from them. One can learn from anyone, an abstract concept like "betters" imo has nothing to do with learning.

You're disagreeing with 'comparison with people who are more accomplished at music' as though it's my entire conception which means you're disagreeing with your own misconstruction in order to provide a launchpad for that pontificating.

EDIT: If your mind is truly open, it's open to the possibility that you can learn from people that are more accomplished because of that specifically.

to the point in your edit, I can learn from anyone without having to put a label or a degree to it like betters, or more accomplished which if you choose to use such words so be it. In order for me to use such language I have view myself along some scale. More accomplished than some less accomplished than others, better than some, less better than others and if I were on the exact same path as someone else I suppose this would be possible. However my accomplishments and anothers accomplishments are different, the world has opened up and I daily deal with people of many different genres, many different styles, many different instruments, many different backgrounds and in fact so many variables it seems for me at least the only purpose comparing myself to others would only bog me down.

Well, I'm aware of where I am vis a vis the wider world and it doesn't mean anything restrictive like this at all. I don't think one can not be aware, that strikes me as tricky talk, to be honest about the exchange.

That statement, like the one I replied to, carries the implication that one who does acknowledge accomplishments one has yet to achieve is being narrow-minded. I've learned by playing with people I couldn't really call musicians, for instance. So both times I'm hearing you pontificate.

[Hink]

for years my sig was "The measure of talent is not a measure against the talents of others but a measure of one's own growth as an artist", I completely stand by that so I respectfully disagree with you. I need not be concerned with comparing myself to others, I need only to keep an open mind and learn from them. One can learn from anyone, an abstract concept like "betters" imo has nothing to do with learning.

You're disagreeing with 'comparison with people who are more accomplished at music' as though it's my entire conception which means you're disagreeing with your own misconstruction in order to provide a launchpad for that pontificating.

EDIT: If your mind is truly open, it's open to the possibility that you can learn from people that are more accomplished because of that specifically.

to the point in your edit, I can learn from anyone without having to put a label or a degree to it like betters, or more accomplished which if you choose to use such words so be it. In order for me to use such language I have view myself along some scale. More accomplished than some less accomplished than others, better than some, less better than others and if I were on the exact same path as someone else I suppose this would be possible. However my accomplishments and anothers accomplishments are different, the world has opened up and I daily deal with people of many different genres, many different styles, many different instruments, many different backgrounds and in fact so many variables it seems for me at least the only purpose comparing myself to others would only bog me down.

Well, I'm aware of where I am vis a vis the wider world and it doesn't mean anything restrictive like this at all. I don't think one can not be aware, that strikes me as tricky talk, to be honest about the exchange.

That statement, like the one I replied to, carries the implication that one who does acknowledge accomplishments one has yet to achieve is being narrow-minded. I've learned by playing with people I couldn't really call musicians, for instance. So both times I'm hearing you pontificate.

only if you choose to interpret it as such

[jancivil]

still hearing that same tone...

I'm done, I said what I wanted to say.

[Hink]

no you heard what you wanted to hear. You chose to change my "more accomplished" to "not recognizing accomplishments" which never came out of my mouth. Your suggesting my words to be arrogant is really off base as this is a two way street. You choose to assume I am only saying I choose not to measure my talents against those who might be better than me, you assume I am saying that I cannot learn from those who might be better than me but ignore the opposite. I simply see no reason to compare myself to anyone, I'm going to look at those who might be more accomplished than me just as I am going to look at those who might be less accomplished than me when it comes to learning. I've said it before, I've learned from you but I'm not going to compare me to you or you to me.

I'll admit it as I have many times, I play for me, totally 100% self indulgent for my joy. I dont force my music on people (though I do post it, it gives me a purpose and I have friends who like it), I dont often play with others (though that might change here in Maine) and it's my therapy. My music has got me through the very best of times and the very worst of times, it didn't matter than if I was better than anyone or who was better than me. In fact all that really matter is it made me better in my own view of myself. That is not arrogance, it's personal growth I take pride in because even at 58 I'm still growing, when I stop they'll put pennies on my eyes.

You see I'm ok, are you ok? If so where's the beef? Why should I bother you so? Many people will feel as I do, many people will feel as you do. There is no handbook, there is no right or wrong here, we all have our ways, we fit with some and not with others and it's cool, we dont have to agree.

I started this with "I respectfully disagree", I still do, I respect your position but I disagree. It's not going to change you nor will it change me. If it aint broke dont fix it, if you're ok it aint broke and if I'm ok it aint broke

[ghettosynth]

no you heard what you wanted to hear.
...
You see I'm ok, are you ok? If so where's the beef? Why should I bother you so?

Many people will feel as I do, many people will feel as you do. There is no handbook, there is no right or wrong here, we all have our ways, we fit with some and not with others and it's cool, we dont have to agree.

I started this with "I respectfully disagree", I still do, I respect your position but I disagree.

Yep! I think for some people, sounds like the OP might be among them, dwelling too much on how you compare to others or how "accomplished" you are can be destructive, or at the very least, counterproductive. While there are certainly exceptions, if you're 40 and still thinking "I suck at X" then probably X isn't really going to be the thing that you're going to shine at.

I like what Foosnark was saying, I agree. You can't do everything, don't let having to achieve some standard of ability prevent you from simply enjoying the ability that you have.

[Aloysius]

When I was very young I got a pair of trousers like my favourite guitar player. It didn't do anything for my guitar playing.