One more thing. Donkey just reminded me of something.
Often music is the only thing that keeps people alive. It may be their only talent in life, their only skill, their only thing they can give to the world. It could very well be their only source of an income or escape from poverty or a bad situation both in spirit, and financially. These kind of people may also be a little more over the top because its their very survival which is at stake. They don't have the luxury of a good paying job to fall back on.
Musicians and GIGANTIC egos
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- KVRAF
- 1818 posts since 5 Apr, 2002 from Seattle, WA, USA
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Not a bad point, Lady J. I have to say, though--
I have no idea what nutneckery is.
Greg
I have no idea what nutneckery is.
Greg
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
Heh, heh...just described a good many great classical composers, just then.Often music is the only thing that keeps people alive. It may be their only talent in life, their only skill, their only thing they can give to the world. It could very well be their only source of an income or escape from poverty or a bad situation both in spirit, and financially. These kind of people may also be a little more over the top because its their very survival which is at stake. They don't have the luxury of a good paying job to fall back on.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
and drugged out, burnt out rockstars...kilroy wrote:Heh, heh...just described a good many great classical composers, just then.Often music is the only thing that keeps people alive. It may be their only talent in life, their only skill, their only thing they can give to the world. It could very well be their only source of an income or escape from poverty or a bad situation both in spirit, and financially. These kind of people may also be a little more over the top because its their very survival which is at stake. They don't have the luxury of a good paying job to fall back on.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 1818 posts since 5 Apr, 2002 from Seattle, WA, USA
not to mention some great jazz artists. you fight harder for your music when it's all you've got.hink wrote:and drugged out, burnt out rockstars...kilroy wrote:Heh, heh...just described a good many great classical composers, just then.Often music is the only thing that keeps people alive. It may be their only talent in life, their only skill, their only thing they can give to the world. It could very well be their only source of an income or escape from poverty or a bad situation both in spirit, and financially. These kind of people may also be a little more over the top because its their very survival which is at stake. They don't have the luxury of a good paying job to fall back on.
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- KVRAF
- 1818 posts since 5 Apr, 2002 from Seattle, WA, USA
done.kilroy wrote:Now *that* would make a lovely sig.you fight harder for your music when it's all you've got.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
isn't that the truth, even though it's not jazz my song Plight of a Dreamer is really my personal story, and when push comes to shove music is all that is truly mine...Lady J wrote:not to mention some great jazz artists. you fight harder for your music when it's all you've got.hink wrote:and drugged out, burnt out rockstars...kilroy wrote:Heh, heh...just described a good many great classical composers, just then.Often music is the only thing that keeps people alive. It may be their only talent in life, their only skill, their only thing they can give to the world. It could very well be their only source of an income or escape from poverty or a bad situation both in spirit, and financially. These kind of people may also be a little more over the top because its their very survival which is at stake. They don't have the luxury of a good paying job to fall back on.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRist
- 109 posts since 19 May, 2002 from Boston
But you're talking about two different things. Being narcissistic and being self-assertive are different ideas. In any profession, one's confidence that helps him/her to take a chance is important. But narcissism is something else; psychologists think that narcissism is actually a sign of lack of confidence. So big-egoness is like the opposite of being confident.Lady J wrote:A key element to being successful in the business of music is being confident, both in yourself and your music. This is one thing seperates the 'could have beens' who never leave their bedroom from those who are out there tearing up stages and eventually the charts.
Therefore this ego thing you're talking about is a matter of selection.
I don't think musicians are particularly big-egoed people because musicians need to have good social/communication skills to survive...unlike painters for example (they tend to be more difficult people in my experience
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- KVRist
- 278 posts since 14 Mar, 2004 from I'm standing right behind you
If you like or admire a person or their work, it's called "confidence" or "self-assertive". If you don't like them or their work it's called "ego" or "narcissism". And if you don't like yourself or your work it's called "envy" and "bitterness".
http://www.retouchpro.com - The world's largest photo retouching community
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
ok...envy or bitterness...how do you figure? Are you saying perfectionism is a product of envy or bitterness? Being self critical the same?Doug Nelson wrote: And if you don't like yourself or your work it's called "envy" and "bitterness".
Maybe the way you see it, but I suffer neither. Envy is not any part of who I am and bitterness is far from the first word that comes to mind when friends think of me. In fact like I say I'm quite humbled by my talents, I started 33 years ago. One week exactly after Rithcie Sambora was born, I was born so he's my example. Do you think he would even still own a guitar if it were not for fame and fortune?
In fact the one thing I can say with all honesty and back it up, is that music is my passion, my life and my art. I don't let myself compromise that, especially for money or fame. I actually feel bad for musicians who peak in their youth...they spend they're lives going downhill...while everyday I still get the same kick I did on July 18th 1971 when I got my first guitar...there is no envy or bitterness the best is yet to come, I haven't peaked
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
in fact my over criticism of my music is really a defense mechanism for fear of sucess. I'm afraid I won't like the other side of the mountain, I like the climb... 
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 1818 posts since 5 Apr, 2002 from Seattle, WA, USA
hink,
no offence but i get the impression that you feel that some how making money or having popular success means that music is no longer someone's passion? if you are secure in yourself and your music, you can take however ugly it is on the other side. keep in mind. life itself is a compromise and thus music which reflects life is as well.
no offence but i get the impression that you feel that some how making money or having popular success means that music is no longer someone's passion? if you are secure in yourself and your music, you can take however ugly it is on the other side. keep in mind. life itself is a compromise and thus music which reflects life is as well.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Like anything in life, it's not that simple.
Nobody's saying that success will steal your passion, just that the entire lifestyle of fame and fortune may have a negative effect on your worldview, and therefore your musical productivity and creativity.
It doesn't NEED to be this way, for sure. Many people just kept getting better and better after becoming famous, though I can't think of any off the top of my head... Chet Atkins, maybe. Tom Waits, for sure... Daniel Lanois... though they're not famous in the same way that pop stars are.
On the other hand, some musicians have quit entirely because of being backstabbed and generally disillusioned by it. It's easy enough to say, "That shows weakness of character," but that's a quick and easy dismissal of the complications of human frailty.
Even worse, I can think of heaps and heaps and heaps of musicians who keep producing some truly god-awful music, and simply can't relate to my peer group (ie. normal folk) enough to move their emotions anymore. That may not necessarily be a lack of passion, but the inevitable shift in perception will change what a person's music is. Case in point: Elton John. Another one: Billy Joel. Both artists with a lot of passion and grit in their earlier work. Their later work? Ick. And I'm not just referring to Billy Joel's breakdowns, I mean BEFORE he even got himself messed up.
Greg
Nobody's saying that success will steal your passion, just that the entire lifestyle of fame and fortune may have a negative effect on your worldview, and therefore your musical productivity and creativity.
It doesn't NEED to be this way, for sure. Many people just kept getting better and better after becoming famous, though I can't think of any off the top of my head... Chet Atkins, maybe.
Tom Waits, for sure... Daniel Lanois... though they're not famous in the same way that pop stars are.On the other hand, some musicians have quit entirely because of being backstabbed and generally disillusioned by it. It's easy enough to say, "That shows weakness of character," but that's a quick and easy dismissal of the complications of human frailty.
Even worse, I can think of heaps and heaps and heaps of musicians who keep producing some truly god-awful music, and simply can't relate to my peer group (ie. normal folk) enough to move their emotions anymore. That may not necessarily be a lack of passion, but the inevitable shift in perception will change what a person's music is. Case in point: Elton John. Another one: Billy Joel. Both artists with a lot of passion and grit in their earlier work. Their later work? Ick. And I'm not just referring to Billy Joel's breakdowns, I mean BEFORE he even got himself messed up.
Greg
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
no I fear it will be the end of my passion, I'm sorry I thought I made that more clear but probably I didn't. That is my cross to bear, and I can be quite self sabotaging as a result. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying I'm quite content and secure in my artistic self, the validation of sucess could poison that. True it's probably unfounded paranoia, but at 45 when I get a new piece of gear I'm still like a kid at xmas. I'm not sure I can put a value on that. But things can change, it's a nice kick when someone likes my music and when they get my expression, and that kick too is very addictive. So I don't know what's around the next bend...Lady J wrote:hink,
no offence but i get the impression that you feel that some how making money or having popular success means that music is no longer someone's passion?
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.