Zappa - what a tight music arranger

[Harry_HH]

Now its proved: ANY comment under ANY thread topic is allowed in the Kvr.
After this, always when someone is accusing about trolling, I refer to the above.

[Quasar]

Zappa put out 60 albums over 30+ years. To say anything meaningful about his music takes a bit of effort. And of course, who wants to put in the effort? It's not like anyone is going to know or care.
...
It always amazes me how hostile people are to music that is any more complex than a Michael Jackson song.

What always amazes me is how quickly someone will try to dismiss valid criticism that they don't agree with. Any hostility that you perceive from me is largely towards his sophomoric humor and overly cynical attitude. However, I agree with other posters that complexity for its own sake isn't necessarily interesting. There is plenty of music that is "more complex than a Michael Jackson song" that I think is marvelous and I have zero interest in feeding the trolls here so you'll just have to guess what that might be.

I've already heard more of Zappa than he deserves based on a reasonable statistical sample. From that, I've heard exactly one track that I can honestly say that I like. If I never listened to another track I feel like I've heard enough to roughly categorize him.

Sorry mate, I simply don't like his music for the most part and this thread has largely left that unchanged. You're not going to change that opinion with fallacy.

I can't imagine anything less rewarding than trying to change someone's opinion on an internet forum (except, maybe, trying to find something clever in a youtube comment thread). And to be honest, I have never understood why so many musical discussions are centered on whether or not each person does or does not like something. Like can be a pretty irrational and downright unintelligent area of human consciousness.

For example, lots of American football fans don't like Tom Brady. And you know, some of them will even try to convince you that it has nothing to do with the fact that he has regularly beaten their favorite team. Certainly the irrationality of this kind of like is plain for all to see. And I certainly can't see how it is ever going to foster meaningful exchange with people who, say, do like Tom Brady.

Now of course, music is quite different than sport. And I have no doubt that disagreements concerning musical preferences are almost without exception less primitive in expression than the chanted taunts, thrown urine, and downright hooliganism that can characterize the behavior of some of the world's many sports fans. But that certainly doesn't make musical likes any more rational.

And before anyone brings this up yet again, yes, there is a great deal of the irrational in art. People have strong irrational opinions about music or any kind of art, and from these opinions much of their musical psyche is generated. But music isn't just irrational.

There are aspects of musical talent that are by and large objectively verifiable. The same way that athletic records or engineering milestones are objectively verifiable; the same way that the soundness of the construction of anything from a house to a clay pot can be objectively verified. Frank Zappa could do things that many other musicians are simply unable to do. To take 2 common examples, many musicians struggle with constantly changing time signatures, and even more people have trouble playing in one time signature while someone else plays in a completely different time signature, but FZ and the musicians he worked with were all quite gifted in both of these areas.

Now this is one of those things that should go without saying: that whether you like his music or hate it, you have to acknowledge these verifiable examples of advanced musical ability. But with FZ, the studied disregard of these abilities is almost universal.

Note, how in your very first contribution to this thread you wrote:
"I'm not saying anything about his skill as a musician..."

And yet the whole point of the thread was to discuss his skill as a musical arranger, which one would think was at least tangentially related to his skill as a musician!!!

Now I get that FZ was a polarizing figure. Lots of people hate him, and I have been hearing them share their reasons for hating him for over 20 years now. And I have to tell you, there isn't much variation to these criticisms.

At the same time, he has also attracted a decent number of fanatical followers, and among them are some who see in him some sort of oracle of truth, which is as silly in this case as it is in any other case. And the most depressing thing is that none of these fans spend much time talking about FZ's unique musical gifts. I have known only a handful of Zappa fans in my life, and not one of them liked the bizarre and complex instrumental stuff that he put so much time and energy into. No, they like the vast number of silly little ditties that he made all too many of.

I am not anything like FZ's biggest fan, and I probably haven't listened to him more than twice in the past 18 months. When people insult his humor I tend to agree with them, and if all of his 'greatest hits' were erased from history I wouldn't be horribly upset.

But the man was a bona fide musical genius. Don't take my word for it, listen to this guy named Slonimsky:

This isn't 'proof' of course. As I said earlier, I know I will never prove anything to anyone regarding what they like or don't like. But such an endorsement from such a musician seemed significant and worth mentioning.

And that is all I have time for.

Great post.

[t3toooo]

Now its proved: ANY comment under ANY thread topic is allowed in the Kvr.
After this, always when someone is accusing about trolling, I refer to the above.

Nah,i only express my opinion!

[Harry_HH]

Now its proved: ANY comment under ANY thread topic is allowed in the Kvr.
After this, always when someone is accusing about trolling, I refer to the above.

Nah,i only express my opinion!

That's what I though, too.

[jancivil]

I neither like the majority of Zappa's work, nor, do I respect his ability to create compelling music.

...
So you are yet again saying that you don't like his music, twice in fact, only worded differently the second time.

This is the same as me saying John Chowning is a genius. You don't have any interest in my view except to want to negate something. It's the very definition of Dunning-Kruger Effect. I hate to even go there, but it's just true.
You actually have no use to consider that you're not a peer of Chowning, of Frank Zappa or of one supposes all kind of people who have done things you will never approach. Nor do you respect, that really sums up your presence in this thread (which presence is not exactly breaking news here). You are simply not aware of where you are in relation to the world. You think you're acing a test that you don't actually grasp.

I have my own opinions on the details of this and they are supported by some who knew him well, I would suggest wider reading to get any kind of grasp on my perspective.

LOL
Your notion of the import of your opinion here is hilarious. Not to mention three known-to-about-everyone fallacies wrapped into one statement.

If you post a Zappa thread, someone is going to say "I don't really like his stuff." Get over it, that's never going to change.

I am 'over it'. I just wish that musical discussions would occasionally be a little less boring.

All of this heated disagreeable shit, while you tell someone to get over their view of your dull opinion.
Also, too "spare everyone your pseudo-intellectual sophistry". Kind of just amazing, the projection there.

[kgdrum]

I've been watching this thread with a combination of disgust and amusement.........
As someone who saw FZ and his bands perform more times than I can count,multiple times on the same tours,successive nights etc.... the talent,depth and brilliance of Frank Zappa as a musician,guitarist,songwriter and arranger is undeniable,whether you like his work to me is an entirely different issue.
I loved his instrumental work, I understood his comedic songs as a vehicle(I think it was FZ that said odd time signatures are very natural as no one speaks in 4/4 time)and they were a way to pay the bills and give the lyrically oriented listener something they could relate to.
I met and hung out with Frank a few times(I was being considered for Captain Beefheart's band at the time) and I knew many of the members of Franks bands and talked to them extensively about arrangements rehearsals,requirements etc....
You don't have to like the finished product but the level of brilliance,talent and innovation can only be denied by anonymous people on the internet who have never achieved the place in the music world that has endured 50 + years and reached millions of listeners,influenced countless musicians and changed the course of music and technology.
Listen to the Purple Lagoon from Live in NY and if you don't think there was arranging skill and talent involved I think you need to have your ears and heart checked.

[seismic1]

Skip to 4:17 if you're on a tight schedule

[ghettosynth]

You don't have any interest in my view ....

Yes, you can just stop there. You know, you might consider just talking about Zappa, and not talking about me, my personality, the imagined hangouts, and whatever else is going on in your mind that has no connection to reality. That would at least be on topic.

[ghettosynth]

anyway, i deeply respect zappa and his crew as musicians; don't listen much, if at all to their records; but do -- to this day -- listen to steve vai now and then.

And now we're getting closer to an understanding of what "compelling" might mean in this context and what the concert review that I posted sometime back alluded to.

[rp314]

In 1967, Frank, age 27, used the Wrecking Crew (including Tommy Tedesco on guitar) to record Lumpy Gravy.

[ghettosynth]

In 1967, Frank, age 27, used the Wrecking Crew (including Tommy Tedesco on guitar) to record Lumpy Gravy.

LOL @ full post, which you've since deleted....heh!

[jancivil]

When Slonimsky appeared on stage with Zappa, FZ mentioned where most of us will know the name from, his Thesaurus of Scales and Musical Patterns. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~gross/Slonims ... nimsky.pdf
NS called his cat Grody-to-the-Max.

Besides Slonimsky, other people who did find Frank Zappa's music compelling:

George Duke
George Duke first played a synth, and first sang prodded by FZ. He didn't want to do either.
"The greatest thing that happened in my life was Frank broke down these ridiculous barriers I had in music."


Jean-Luc Ponty
Ponty made a whole album of Zappa works back in 1969.

Johnny 'Guitar' Watson
big part of why Zappa gravitated to electric guitar as a teen


Pierre Boulez
Boulez went out of his way to do some Zappa works, thinking this would be good for his group.
Boulez is one of the pre-eminent musicians of our age, an absolute giant...

^Le Sacre du Printemps, Boulez conducts
my favorite recording of it is one of Boulez's, w. the Cleveland Orchestra.


Nagano: "this was the last time, actually, I ever tried to be coy because when you're dealing with people who are really serious there's no time for games..."


I almost feel like going on and on but this would be sufficient. So, what is it they get that you don't. That's the question.

[jancivil]

[jancivil]

[rp314]

The video appears to have been grafted on (Underwood is obviously soloing on alto not on bass clarinet, for example ).

That was a great band...