Minimoog Softsynth Shootout: Diva MiniV3 Monark Legend Minimonsta vs Model D

[Richard_Synapse]

What I have yet to see a dev such as yourself, do - interestingly enough - is to emulate in software a vintage 'hybrid-tech' sampler like The Great E-MU III - which played back 16-bit samples through actual analog filters - (1) for each of it's voices - I'm well aware that there are many software emulations of samplers - but it would be a different beast indeed to have some heavy coding dedicated to emulating individual analog filter characteristics independently in great detail for each individual sampler voice -

As a guy who's first *sampler* was a playback-only System 360 keyboard, I can attest to the fact that samplers that used a DAC-to-resonant-analog-filter topology for each of it's voices individually (of which there were actually very few 16-bit offerings available) indeed sounded more alive -

Yes for sure, I'm a big fan of vintage ROMplers myself, the Korg DSS/DSM and Ensoniq Mirage have analog filters as well, great stuff (and probably a couple more). Since we cannot use the original sample content of such machines for copyright reasons, we have thought about making a Sampler at some point which uses our own sample content and incorporates these analog features.

Richard

[goldenanalog]

I'm a big fan of vintage ROMplers myself, the Korg DSS/DSM and Ensoniq Mirage have analog filters as well, great stuff (and probably a couple more). Since we cannot use the original sample content of such machines for copyright reasons, we have thought about making a Sampler at some point which uses our own sample content and incorporates these analog features.

Richard

I did a little research to check & see just how many samplers were built having the criteria of being both 16 bit, as well as using the DAC-to-analog-filter-per-voice topology:

Sequential Circuits Prophet 3000

Emulator EIII keyboard (EIII rack derivitives used digital filters - along with everything else that came after the EIII )

Fairlight Series III

There's likely others; but that's all I found.

Imho: I don't see a great need to supply a software version of what we're talking about with a large sample set - iirc: you could use almost *any* reasonable content with the EIII, and it 'played out' of the keyboard a little more interesting - simply by virtue of the fact that each voice had it's own individual personality; basically causing each note played to somewhat 'stand out' - if that possibly makes any sense, Richard.

When all is said and done: an EIII sampler operates not unlike a polyphonic analog synth - your sound source being a sample instead of a CEM3340, etc.

Where this idea could get *very* interesting is if the emulated filters on each voice were radically different - imagine having several different filter types available that could be randomly rotated each time a new voice is triggered - CEM to SSM and back, as an example.

The big plus of emulating an EIII keyboard from a dev's perspective is that you don't have to worry about spending any of your time on oscillators - in an EIII, they are purely samples -

[fluffy_little_something]

Make an original synth instead, one that combines the best aspects of all the classics, not emulating any specific model or sound, but aiming at the best sound quality, period. Add some modest, yet innovative features not found on other plugins. Finished ^^

You mean, like, Diva?

More or less, but Synapse Audio's should be more CPU-efficient and have a better GUI. And I think Diva does contain sections emulating specific hardware. No need for that. Just make it sound great in a generic way.

I think TAL should do a professional version of their Noizemaker, which seems original, but a bit dated and limited.

Speaking of TAL, isn't their sampler exactly what was suggested below?

[fmr]

Speaking of TAL, isn't their sampler exactly what was suggested below?

It is indeed, except that emulates the DAC of Emulator II (but also the DAC of Akai S1000, which I believe will be on pair with E-III, and some others). And it has a great analog modeled filter, and four elements per voice.

Besides, the main thing here is modeling the DAC's, because, in what concerns filters, all the major samplers in the market have great analog modeled filters, and plenty of them (I'm talking Kontakt, Falcon and HALion here), besides many other tools. What they don't emulate are the old DACs.

[fmr]

Make an original synth instead, one that combines the best aspects of all the classics, not emulating any specific model or sound, but aiming at the best sound quality, period. Add some modest, yet innovative features not found on other plugins. Finished ^^

You mean, like, Diva?

Yes

[fmr]

Where this idea could get *very* interesting is if the emulated filters on each voice were radically different - imagine having several different filter types available that could be randomly rotated each time a new voice is triggered - CEM to SSM and back, as an example.

I believe you can achieve this in Falcon, already, due to its open modular architecture, although I think this sounds better in theory than it will in practice.

[goldenanalog]

Speaking of TAL, isn't their sampler exactly what was suggested below?

TAL is doing something very interesting, but different:

They're treating inputted material as though it was natively sampled by a dinosaur sampler -

What I'm talking about is, by example:

You play a chord using (3) notes - each note has a slightly-to-radically different personality; because each note can be seen as being generated independently by it's own voice card - each with a DAC, reconstruction filter, resonant analog filter, ADSR, Amp - their collective outputs then virtually summed through, let's say: a couple of 5532 models -

Since each virtual voice card is different, the values for especially the resonant filters won't audibly precisely match for the (3) voices, increasing complexity for the overall sound -

[fluffy_little_something]

Sounds like overkill to me Did hardware do that? Would it really improve your music?

[goldenanalog]

Where this idea could get *very* interesting is if the emulated filters on each voice were radically different - imagine having several different filter types available that could be randomly rotated each time a new voice is triggered - CEM to SSM and back, as an example.

I believe you can achieve this in Falcon, already, due to its open modular architecture, although I think this sounds better in theory than it will in practice.

This very well may be true, fmr - but, indeed: the EIII is considered special among the fray because of it's sound - it's distinguishing characteristic being that it was built using a higher parts count/brute-force topology ($$$) then the vast majority of it's peers; and what was manufactured afterwards -

[fmr]

Where this idea could get *very* interesting is if the emulated filters on each voice were radically different - imagine having several different filter types available that could be randomly rotated each time a new voice is triggered - CEM to SSM and back, as an example.

I believe you can achieve this in Falcon, already, due to its open modular architecture, although I think this sounds better in theory than it will in practice.

This very well may be true, fmr - but, indeed: the EIII is considered special among the fray because of it's sound - it's distinguishing characteristic being that it was built using a higher parts count/brute-force topology ($$$) then the vast majority of it's peers; and what was manufactured afterwards -

yet the EIII didn't work the way you describe (with each voice generated through it's own "voice card"). Actually, I think that the only one that worked that way was the Fairlight, and there, the analog filter was a "tracking" filter (mainly to remove aliasing), not exactly working the way you are used to in synthesizers.

And TAL Sampler isn't doing anything of what you describe. Actually, it uses modern samples, it simply plays them "through" a modeled DAC of the old beats. It's that component (the DAC) that gives them the "personality") you seem to seek. And I had experience with the EIII, the EMax II, the S1000, the Korg DSM-1 and the Roland S770 (when I was at college), owned a Casio FZ-10M and still own an E-4XT.

Again, what you are describing can be achieved in Falcon, but I doubt it will give you the results you are expecting, unless you are trying to achieve something in the same vein of the "musique concrète" composers like Shaeffer and Henry.

It seems to me you are "romanticizing" the old beasts. They have their charm, I agree, but...

[goldenanalog]

Sounds like overkill to me Did hardware do that? Would it really improve your music?

Going down the list:

The Prophet 3000 - never seen one, personally. I heard that it was manufactured in very small numbers.

SCI was apparently done at that point.

The EIII keyboard - did mess with it, but it was out of my price range. It's the one keyboard sampler I would definitely like to own for reasons stated; but older electronic musical instruments in general can be risky/expensive to own & use - especially 'half-analog' stuff like the EIII.

Fairlight Series III - no way. Never seen or heard one in person; and would not pursue - I'd rather spend $$$ on a Korg Kronos, if anything -

Lol - it's always going to be more about the artist, and less about the tool; but I'm personally more inspired playing a real piano/organ/Minimoog/etc. then something software -

[fluffy_little_something]

Sounds like overkill to me Did hardware do that? Would it really improve your music?

Going down the list:

The Prophet 3000 - never seen one, personally. I heard that it was manufactured in very small numbers.

SCI was apparently done at that point.

The EIII keyboard - did mess with it, but it was out of my price range. It's the one keyboard sampler I would definitely like to own for reasons stated; but older electronic musical instruments in general can be risky/expensive to own & use - especially 'half-analog' stuff like the EIII.

Fairlight Series III - no way. Never seen or heard one in person; and would not pursue - I'd rather spend $$$ on a Korg Kronos, if anything -

Lol - it's always going to be more about the artist, and less about the tool; but I'm personally more inspired playing a real piano/organ/Minimoog/etc. then something software -

Thinking about it, you could use Alternate, Random or Velocity as a mod matrix source in TAL's sampler and modulate the parameters you want to vary per voice/note...
It also has a service control panel where you can customize each of the 12 voices individually.

[goldenanalog]

Thinking about it, you could use Alternate, Random or Velocity as a mod matrix source in TAL's sampler and modulate the parameters you want to vary per voice/note...
It also has a service control panel where you can customize each of the 12 voices individually.

Sounds very interesting, fluffy_little_something - I need to take a good look at this when I have some time.

[goldenanalog]

http://www.sonicprojects.ch/opxpro2/technology.html

- A brilliant example/realisation - squarely along the path of what I'm talking about -

[pdxindy]

http://www.sonicprojects.ch/opxpro2/technology.html

- A brilliant example/realisation - squarely along the path of what I'm talking about -

A variety of synths such as Diva do that these days. Plus plenty of synths have the modulation options to create variations per voice.