Musicians and GIGANTIC egos

[Lady J]

hink,

no offence but i get the impression that you feel that some how making money or having popular success means that music is no longer someone's passion?

no I fear it will be the end of my passion, I'm sorry I thought I made that more clear but probably I didn't. That is my cross to bear, and I can be quite self sabotaging as a result. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying I'm quite content and secure in my artistic self, the validation of sucess could poison that. True it's probably unfounded paranoia, but at 45 when I get a new piece of gear I'm still like a kid at xmas. I'm not sure I can put a value on that. But things can change, it's a nice kick when someone likes my music and when they get my expression, and that kick too is very addictive. So I don't know what's around the next bend...

Hink, ft you are that afraid of success ruining you passion, you need not worry as you are very unlikely to have the kind of success which you are afraid of with that fear. Like you said, it's self-sabotaging. that said, i've come across quite a lot of people like that here and on other places (Sectionz) online and I'm always shocked at their dismissal and hostility to those who don't play along. these places tend to be the aural equivalent to "Am I Hot?" or "Rate My Poo" websites. In other words, they draw people who need validation but do not want, can't handle or are unwilling or unable to seek it in more traditional ways that could lead to potential fame. So the opinions tend to skew that way. There are exceptions to this but i've found it to be true in a great many production forums.

Those that are out there ripping things up, drop in occassional to learn something they didn't know. Those that do things as a hobby, live out their lives there and have a lot of company.

[Wopelka]

I'm always shocked at their dismissal and hostility to those who don't play along.

i guess that's because there's no point to say i'm a big star and i gonna make a lot of money on a web forum. if it's true, fine, but who cares? if it's not true, it's just some kind of trolling behaviour.

Those that do things as a hobby, live out their lives there and have a lot of company.

yeah, making new friends and eventually meet them, as some of us did in Southport recently, is one of the best thing a living web community can provide to its members. the real pros have no time to hang out here, anyway.

[Lady J]

I'm always shocked at their dismissal and hostility to those who don't play along.

i guess that's because there's no point to say i'm a big star and i gonna make a lot of money on a web forum. if it's true, fine, but who cares? if it's not true, it's just some kind of trolling behaviour.

stop it flat out. or do you want a lock placed on this thread as well?

Those that do things as a hobby, live out their lives there and have a lot of company.

yeah, making new friends and eventually meet them, as some of us did in Southport recently, is one of the best thing a living web community can provide to its members. the real pros have no time to hang out here, anyway.

That's fine. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with that. It's when people say, 'well where is your music?' "what have YOU done?" "Why don't YOU POST HERE MORE if you're such a PRO/HOT/WHATEVER?" that gets me. I seldom had time until recently to fully participate here (most of things are in storage after a move and I'm settling into my new place). But now having submitted two back to back competition entries, i realise being a 'respected and valued' member on forums like this is way more time intensive than doing what i do otherwise. If I'm only here to leech information and knowledge then to me, that should not be any worse than hobbyists. If that doesnt make me part of the inner circle of 'cool people' so be it.

[whyterabbyt]

Not sure if its related, but Ive noticed that the more 'serious' singer-songwriter types actually seem to get more personal and more introspective as they grow older; the angry-young-thing songs of their youth when they first got to strut their (alter)egos about tend to diminish, and the ones that last, do so because they can deal with the personal and (small-p) political on a more private and less egotistical way.

Very few 'pop' artists seem to last that long, though.... and in the aspiring hopefuls, a lot of what looks like ego is probably a stage-managed persona.

[Lady J]

I can think of heaps and heaps and heaps of musicians who keep producing some truly god-awful music, and simply can't relate to my peer group (ie. normal folk) enough to move their emotions anymore

true

listen to the latest lenny cravitz album
i went to his concert and even his fans stood still
on his new stuff - the entire show leaned on old material and the big 10 minutes of the show was an extented version of let love rule. He`s still a good entertainer and his guitarist is the bomb but i think he misses people around him who dare to spout some unbridled criticism.

Being a performer means giving people what they want: Your hits.
And then making them want something they didn't even know they wanted: Your new material.

The two are not mutually exclusive but its hard to pull both off, Which is why people like Billy Joel and Elton John and Neil Diamond just fall back on their hits. Because that is all people coming to their concerts really want. They are now stuck doing "greatest hits' tours because they no longer have a need to do anything else. Kravitz runs the risk of doing the same if he lets too much of his show be a retrospective. But then again, as an artist matures that tends to happen...

Rolling Stones, Madonna, Run DMC..etc.

[mauseoleum]

well thre's a difference between skill as a player and a performer.

[Lady J]

well thre's a difference between skill as a player and a performer.

of course. they are equally hard work and it is rare when someone is equally great at both.

i was just responding to remco's message about the Kravitz concert which has little to do with the subject of this thread really.

[vurt]

i think the subject of this thread is a misnomer actually,musicians do not have bigger egos than say painter and decorators.ego is not a proffessional remit surely its a personal trait?
plus ego isnt always a bad thing,being over egotistical beyond any talent you have for whatever trade is the problem i suppose.its self confidence really and some people got it some people dont.

[mauseoleum]

well i know this is funny but i've played my way started with garage punk bands in late 80's to more 'acceptable' and popppy stuff later: it's different when you stand up as nobody(e.g. young starting band) to a crowd in a club or radio editor - like when you are a member of a more established entity ... and it's a bitch when for some reason a band(or production team) breaks up or whatever and you just lost ground under your feet. this all shows in some attitude which is a bit different than egoism - well some people actually learn to 'read' egos of non-musicians involved in process :p well mamma told you not to come

[Emerald Tablet]

i was just responding to remco's message about the Kravitz concert which has little to do with the subject of this thread really.

it has - people around lenny say he`s a tuff guy to work with - he`s a perfectionist and someone who always knows what he wants. I believe that`s called EGO right ? Well let`s say his ideas aren`t so good anymore - who`s around to tell him in the group of people he`s in - they could be afraid for dishonourable discharge or so - or just for a harsh reaction after they gave there criticism. I stood there wondering why all his old songs were magnificant and all his new songs uninspired mud ! serious - it`s not that i don`t want to try his new stuff - it just didn`t stand out, while i totaly love the guy as a singer and performer.

[Hink]

hink,

no offence but i get the impression that you feel that some how making money or having popular success means that music is no longer someone's passion?

no I fear it will be the end of my passion, I'm sorry I thought I made that more clear but probably I didn't. That is my cross to bear, and I can be quite self sabotaging as a result. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying I'm quite content and secure in my artistic self, the validation of sucess could poison that. True it's probably unfounded paranoia, but at 45 when I get a new piece of gear I'm still like a kid at xmas. I'm not sure I can put a value on that. But things can change, it's a nice kick when someone likes my music and when they get my expression, and that kick too is very addictive. So I don't know what's around the next bend...

Hink, ft you are that afraid of success ruining you passion, you need not worry as you are very unlikely to have the kind of success which you are afraid of with that fear. Like you said, it's self-sabotaging. that said, i've come across quite a lot of people like that here and on other places (Sectionz) online and I'm always shocked at their dismissal and hostility to those who don't play along. these places tend to be the aural equivalent to "Am I Hot?" or "Rate My Poo" websites. In other words, they draw people who need validation but do not want, can't handle or are unwilling or unable to seek it in more traditional ways that could lead to potential fame. So the opinions tend to skew that way. There are exceptions to this but i've found it to be true in a great many production forums.

Those that are out there ripping things up, drop in occassional to learn something they didn't know. Those that do things as a hobby, live out their lives there and have a lot of company.

Ladyj I really appreciate what you say here and I'm glad you mention that there are exceptions. Because firts in over 600 posts here I doubt you'll find any of those where I'm hostile. The only time I'm dissmissive is when it comes to threads about values, religion or politics. I feel those are best determined for an individual by the individual and of course their emviroment. But do you think it's a bit presuptious to say it's doubtful that I would achieve such fame. Fame isn't based on talent, fame doesn't even have to be major fame. Some people have a small following, become legends in their own minds and develop egos. This is why I find myself not in a band, I'm hooked on the kick I get from playing...not like other peers who reach the same level. I know so many people who are hooked on the attention, the fact that they will always be "cool" and such. Many artists are in it for that reason. Like I said I can prove by my years of devotion to my art, not my ego that for me it's about the music. Remember I started out saying in this thread that I'm selfish about my music. It really has less to do with fame then it does passion. I don't want to "have to play" I like to play when I'm in my most creative cycle. I do have one label pursuing me, and a relative that has a very good reputation in the music industry and a strong desire to help me. My grandfather got his father their first house...but I don't know if that's what I want, even more so I'm affraid if I cross that line I can't come back...but it's all good, I'm happy, I have a beautiful family and the only person I compare myself to is me, if I keep progressing in my abilities I'm a sucess...

[whyterabbyt]

Lady J quoth But now having submitted two back to back competition entries, i realise being a 'respected and valued' member on forums like this is way more time intensive than doing what i do otherwise.

I think you're perhaps completely missing what people consider 'respected and valued'. And it isnt the competitions...

If I'm only here to leech information and knowledge then to me, that should not be any worse than hobbyists.

Amazingly, that doesnt surprise me.

But to me, it is worse.

If that doesnt make me part of the inner circle of 'cool people' so be it.

Yeah, well the sooner people pick up on your cynical reaping of this place to further your own selfishness and stop helping you out, the better, then.

[Hink]

btw my fears are somewhat founded as I left music retail because it was having an impact on my music. Playing was rare because when I got home my ears were tired, my days off were devoted to my family...but I wouldn't call my music a hobby either, it's a lifestyle..

[Lunch Money]

Being a performer means giving people what they want: Your hits.
And then making them want something they didn't even know they wanted: Your new material.

You can't overlook the fact that when many artists (in a prefab pop world, things might be different...) start out, the songs that become their hits weren't hits to begin with. They were simply songs with feeling and (hopefully) a well-written melody or hook. Now that I've written that, I realize how different today's industry is... however, it's still applicable to artists like Billy Joel.

The two are not mutually exclusive but its hard to pull both off, Which is why people like Billy Joel and Elton John and Neil Diamond just fall back on their hits. Because that is all people coming to their concerts really want. They are now stuck doing "greatest hits' tours because they no longer have a need to do anything else. Kravitz runs the risk of doing the same if he lets too much of his show be a retrospective. But then again, as an artist matures that tends to happen...

Nah, I think this misses the mark. The original point was that they stop having the ability to write new hits that mean anything to anybody, and that's partially a function of the fame and fortune and the lifestyle that goes with it. Obviously some artists survive, but the odds aren't great. They default to becoming a "greatest hits" show because their new material is weak. You're right that it's what the fans want, but only because the songs are much better, not because of nostalgia.

If the artists had new and interesting things to say, the fans would grow with them. Instead, many find that their new lives leave their art devoid of meaning.

Greg

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

Fame is a musicians worst enemy, in that it's like a drug.. desirable when you don't know it well, but eventually, unless you're very strong, it will destroy you.

I tend to agree that the "famous musician" lifestyle mostly ends up isolating an artist from the very experiences that created the music in the first place. Doesn't happen to everyone, but it seems to have eventually brought almost everyone down. Even a relatively popular local band can suffer being swallowed by the whole "rock and roll lifestyle" and ending up fading away on the hotel circuit..sigh.

I'm not famous, and I'm fortunate in that I'm happy in my tiny little niche.. I don't have the drive to write "popular" tunes or tap into whatever the current zeitgeist is. But then.. I'm horrible at compromising and I'm terminally stubborn, so I'd never make it in the music biz at large anyway. So take all this as "just what I've observed"