Limited number of ReWire-channels

[3mph]

Hi.

I think Sonar and Reason worls fine together using ReWire. The only problem is that Sonar has a limited amount of channels (midi-channels), so 16 devices in Reason is the maximum if you want to controll them from Sonar. You can't choose what devices to control, and the 16 devices includes the "hardware interface", a mixer (if you make on) and any effect-processors.

Isn't there a work-around for this? I know I could use the Reason sequencer for the devices I can't control in Sonar, but having to sequencers controlling the same virtual instrument can get quite confusing.

Please share your experiences

[ew]

1)The problem isn't with Sonar as far as the MIDI channels go;it's Reason.Sonar can have multiple MIDI ports as inputs,while Reason can only have one.
2)Yeah,you have the 16 device limit,BUT who said you can't choose the devices?Any destination in Reason will be listed in the MIDI dropdown in Sonar if you have them ReWired.And,the hardware interface is NOT a destination.
ew

[Stupid American Pig]

what ew said. At the very worst you could bounce down some of the midi tracks to audio when you use up all 16 inputs in reason. Otherwise, I usually never run into this limitation since my PC cant handle all that many things going on in reason *and* multitracking.

[headquest]

This is an issue with Sonar, not Reason or ReWire.

In Tracktion or Audition, to name two examples, you can ReWire direct to any of the 64 channels in Reasons audio device. Audition is particularly good - when you enable ReWire a menu appears giving you the option of 1. connecting Reason's master out (stereo), 2. Auto-connecting all 64 audio in/outs, or 3. manually configuring each track in Audition - neat!

Also, don't confuse ReWire with MIDI - again this can confuse in Sonar.

I hope the ReWire implementation in Sonar 4 will be rectifed, as I am very interested in Sonar .

[ew]

In Sonar you have the first two options you mentioned-either the master stereo pair or all 64.However,you have the max of 16 devices,and that IS a MIDI limitation due to Reason only receiving on one port.
So-no,it isn't a Sonar limitation.
ew

[headquest]

In Sonar you have the first two options you mentioned-either the master stereo pair or all 64.However,you have the max of 16 devices,and that IS a MIDI limitation due to Reason only receiving on one port.
So-no,it isn't a Sonar limitation.
ew

I kind of see your MIDI point (and please be gentle, because I'm not yet a Sonar user!)

However, if you ditch Reason's mixer you can route 64 devices (or 32 stereo ones, etc) into Reasons audio interface and then open all 64 in Audition / Tracktion / etc.

So the 16 device limitation - so far as I can see - remains specifically a Sonar quirk - and one that has been widely commented on as such.

Like I said though, I very much like the Sonar 3 demo (especially Groove Clips, Sonitus FX, MIDI editing features) so I am looking forward to seeing what they do with v.4

With a few of these quirks sorted it could well be the next software for me yet (but I'll have to wait and see along with everyone else )

[Amberience]

hehe. In Live you can sequence more than 16, you can use all 64 inputs, and there are no limitations.

This is because Live treats Reason as a VSTi as it were, and not a separate program.

Sonar blows.

[bnmoore]

In Sonar you have the first two options you mentioned-either the master stereo pair or all 64.However,you have the max of 16 devices,and that IS a MIDI limitation due to Reason only receiving on one port.
So-no,it isn't a Sonar limitation.
ew

REASON has four MIDI ports (64 channels) for external control and you can use a different one for the internal sequencer. I normally run it stand-alone on a separate machine and bring the sound into SONAR via ADAT.

I think the limitation may be with the ReWire DXi Wrapper (DeWire.dll) With even multi-timbral DXi's you get one 16 channel port per instance. I don't think you can have more than one ReWire(d) instance of REASON in SONAR at a time.

[davidv@plogue]

REASON has four MIDI ports (64 channels) for external control and you can use a different one for the internal sequencer.

nope it has much more than that.
Each device you add will create another channel in the host<->rewire mapping, and after 4x16, youll get a new port and so on.

[3mph]

(Ahem..) First of all, the major reason I'm not posting a lot in these forums is that my English really sucks and I'm afraid I won't be taken seriuosly because of my "accent".

Well.. The "Hardware Interface" IS a destination, I'll send you a screenshot if you want

It seems there's a little confusion about "hardware channles" and MIDI-channels when using Reason via ReWire. "Hardware channels" referes to the actual audio-channles from the "hardware interface". You'll need to send MIDI-data to the devices routed to the "hardware interface" to get them playing. MIDI-channels are equialent to "real" MIDI-channels, like the signals you'd send to a hardware synth or other device. The MIDI system has virtually a unlimited number of channels, but since the the GM-standard was introduced (heavily influenced by Roland as they enginerred most of it) 16 channels has been the de-facto standard. If you have a larger need you'll need to buy extra equipment to route things around. I can't see how to make Sonar use more than 16 MIDI channels. Thats a serious limitation! (The XG Standard made by Yamaha utilises 32 MIDI-channles as default).

I know Reason has 4x16 MIDI-inputs, but if you can't choose what bus to route MIDI into from Sonar, it isn't of much use. It's for the truly external controllers (keyboards, master-seqs, syncers ect.)

I hear noticible better sound from Reason when you route instruments/fx directly to the "Hardware Interface". The mixer REALLY messes up the sound. But.. I also noticed the CPU-meter up in the red when I reached 11 devices (in mixed stereo/mono, so it was actually 21 mono-inputs) - when using the main-output via a mixer I hardly notice anything on the meter. Besides.. it's a lot of work wiring things up and keeping track of what is what. That method is out of the question for me

My best solution is to create 16 devices for playing sound (synths & samplers) at first and then create the mixer, the fx and so on. That way I have 15 "pure" instruments, and not 8 instruments and then 6 devices that I have no interest of sending MIDI to.

[headquest]

I think the limitation may be with the ReWire DXi Wrapper (DeWire.dll) With even multi-timbral DXi's you get one 16 channel port per instance.

Ah ha - that may explain it...

I don't think you can have more than one ReWire(d) instance of REASON in SONAR at a time.

That part is the same in any app - only one Reason instance. That's why it's good to get all 64 outs.

[Tronam]

This has been a long time irritation for me with Cakewalk's Rewire2 implementation in Sonar. This limitation has nothing to do with audio channels, but the "MIDI" channels between Sonar and Reason. Rewire2 not only allows for the streaming of audio, but also note data which allows for the playing/automating of the Reason rack devices. But, if you go to the inserted DXi MIDI track for Reason, you'll notice that it only accounts for 16 channels and one is always eaten up because the Hardware Interface rack module is not MIDI controllable. The problem is that you don't get to choose which devices show up in that list of 15 possibilities. They just register based on the order in which you add the Reason rack devices and you can't re-arrange them. You actally have to delete the devices and re-add them, which is not even a workaround. This makes it semi-useless for creative rack configurations or advanced Reason users. In Cubase SX, every rack device you add is directly controllable via MIDI over Rewire2... there is no limit. And there shouldn't be, because the Rewire2 protocol can theoretically address over 4,000 MIDI channels. In all other areas, I'd rate Sonar's Rewire2 implementation very high in both stability and responsiveness, but this problem is a showstopper for me. I'm a little bit disappointed to hear that they still have not addressed this issue.

-Tronam

[3mph]

I've tried some work-arounds now, and the best I could come up with (inspired by the cakewalk-forum) was using MIDI-yoke. It works because Reason can receive MIDI-signals, even when in slave-mode.

The sad thing is, that as the number of reason-devices grows and more rewire audio-streams are used, the CPU gets hotter and at some point the CPU-meter is showing anything between 50% and 95%. When hitting the highest peaks, all other things than audio-processing slows down, including the MIDI-yoke application. It would do fine for pads and other sounds that doesn't require near perfect timing, but for a virtual nylon-guitar it won't do.

So.. I guess we'll have to wait another year or two (and spend some more money) before our favorite sequencer will handle more rewire MIDI-channels.