More copy protection...

[Miles1981]

Best post to date.
They will learn it is a boomerang

Not if the medias keep on comparing digital material with hardware. You can't compare the two types of "stealing".

[PurpleSunray]

They will learn it is a boomerang

What boomerang?
There is no boomerang for the user.

If you go out of bizz beacuse of piracy, it's your problem not the users one.
He will just steal another software that can do same.

Also I do not agree that software piracy does same dmg as stealing a Car, or even more.
What dmg does Zaphod have I steal his plugins. I say 0$, because I would not have not bought it anyhow (nothing against your plugins, just an example ).
If I steal a Mercedes from their factory, the dmg they have is equal to the cost to build that Car.

So everyone shouting out that software piracy is same as grand theft auto, makes things worse.
Everyone can see immediatly that it is not - you buy a license to use a product not a product. So don't try to convince ppl about, they know its wrong will become even more leery

[stratum]

What dmg does Zaphod have I steal his plugins. I say 0$, because I would not have not bought it anyhow (nothing against your plugins, just an example ).
If I steal a Mercedes from their factory, the dmg they have is equal to the cost to build that Car.

So everyone shouting out that software piracy is same as grand theft auto, makes things worse.
Everyone can see immediatly that it is not - you buy a license to use a product not a product. So don't try to convince ppl about, they know its wrong will become even more leery

Since the time and financial resources spent while producing the software could be spent for something else, I can see immediately that this logic is false.

[PurpleSunray]

Since time and financial resourses spent while producing the software could be spent for something else, I can see immediately that this logic is false.

You build a software just for me?
If you do b2b this is true.
If you deliver to mass market, you don't spend any time or financial resourses to build a product for me.
Let simply try it: @Zaphod I'm going to pirate your next Nebula release.
So Zaphod is now supposed to not release a new Nebula version anymore, but spend time on something different, cuz I'm going to pirate it?

[stratum]

If you deliver to mass market, you don't spend any time or financial resourses to build a product for me.

Yeah, cost calculations are a bit more complex, since we don't know if the seller has already covered his costs and started making profit or not.

[PurpleSunray]

If you deliver to mass market, you don't spend any time or financial resourses to build a product for me.

Yeah, cost calculations are a bit more complex, since we don't know if the seller has already covered his costs and started making profit or not.

It's not even about cost.
It is about revenue. You earn 0$ if I steal your software, but you also earn 0$ if don't buy you software.
My point is simply that there is no dmg on your total balance when I steal your plugin, compared to if I don't buy it.
That is not true if you actually buy a product rather than a license to use it. If I steal a Car from Car vendor, vendor still has the cost of that Car but has no revenue from it. It is waaaaay better from him if I don't buy the Car, rather then if I steal it. For you as a VST plugin dev, there is no difference between a pirate and a non-customer - both don't cause any cost, both don't bring any revenue.

[stratum]

Sounds like a reasonable argument.

[2ZrgE]

It's still punishment, and it drains a lot of money from the market. It's an overpriced solution that does not work in the long run (only for their pockets, of course)

(reminder: When some version of iLok protection got cracked, they sent out a letter to developers somewhat akin to "Oh, you should have upgraded to the new version, you silly people". So they force everyone to update everything every so and so many years, because, well, yeah, they're competent only in marketing... having their stuff cracked is part of their business strategy, so much should be obvious to everyone by now)

I disagree. Not long ago my pc broke and I had to finish important projects. I quickly got a 2nd pc as a temporary workstation replacement. All I had to do was put the dongles in and have fun... Some companies made me angry. I had to deactivate the old licence first, which I obviously couldn't. Talking to the support was timeconsuming. Sorry, but walking through 1000 activations, c&r, keyfiles is just a pita.

Also I talked to a someone long time ago who said mostly its the fault of the dev if a dongle protection failed. They can always configure the strength (degree of protection, vm, checksums) as well as the frequency of checking and the content that shoudl be checked.
Of course there are always some issues from the dongle companies, but the ones that have their own copy protection schemes, also fail more often (e.g. leaked keys & serials, bad implementation).

I prefer dongles over any other cp.

Having to buy a thing to use another thing I bought is just a no-go for me.

Imaging buying a car and your vendor says "Hey just to make it clear dude you also have to buy that thingy from that other company to be able to drive your new car" is and was always an absolutely absurd thought for my taste.

Good thing there'a other cars (and other software).

[Kylotan]

The problem is, this isn't possible in the general case. If the crack is perfect then there is no difference in functionality except one product cost money and one did not.

That's why Vertion and I stressed the importance of updates.

Firstly, given that crackers will crack the updated version, this is not really of any help in the long term. It gives you a benefit for the few hours, days, or weeks while the new product is not cracked - which again proves that copy protection helps, because it extends that time period.

Secondly, free updates are feature development just like new products are. In very abstract terms, it means (for example) delivering 15 features to someone who willingly paid for the initial 10. So, did you overcharge for the original product? Or are you stretching yourself too thin by developing extra functionality for existing customers for free?

I'm excluding bug fixes because obviously customers are entitled to working software. But on the whole it's obvious that customers like updates that add features because they get something extra for nothing. And it should be obvious that is not a sustainable strategy in itself - you have to factor it into your pricing, and therefore we're back at square one, just investing time in doing incremental releases hoping to stay one step ahead of the pirates.

[Soundplex]

It's still punishment, and it drains a lot of money from the market. It's an overpriced solution that does not work in the long run (only for their pockets, of course)

(reminder: When some version of iLok protection got cracked, they sent out a letter to developers somewhat akin to "Oh, you should have upgraded to the new version, you silly people". So they force everyone to update everything every so and so many years, because, well, yeah, they're competent only in marketing... having their stuff cracked is part of their business strategy, so much should be obvious to everyone by now)

I disagree. Not long ago my pc broke and I had to finish important projects. I quickly got a 2nd pc as a temporary workstation replacement. All I had to do was put the dongles in and have fun... Some companies made me angry. I had to deactivate the old licence first, which I obviously couldn't. Talking to the support was timeconsuming. Sorry, but walking through 1000 activations, c&r, keyfiles is just a pita.

Also I talked to a someone long time ago who said mostly its the fault of the dev if a dongle protection failed. They can always configure the strength (degree of protection, vm, checksums) as well as the frequency of checking and the content that shoudl be checked.
Of course there are always some issues from the dongle companies, but the ones that have their own copy protection schemes, also fail more often (e.g. leaked keys & serials, bad implementation).

I prefer dongles over any other cp.

Having to buy a thing to use another thing I bought is just a no-go for me.

Imaging buying a car and your vendor says "Hey just to make it clear dude you also have to buy that thingy from that other company to be able to drive your new car" is and was always an absolutely absurd thought for my taste.

Good thing there'a other cars (and other software).

You don't need to buy fuel for your car? Amazing...

Sorry, buying a dongle once isn't a big deal. You can use it for multiple plugins, which need it too and you'll get a new one if it's broken. You may even put it in your insurance and get a replacement if it got lost (which is pretty rar).
The only disadvantage to me is the overhead with licence transfers. Anything else is nice and easy.

[PurpleSunray]

You don't need to buy fuel for your car? Amazing...

Sorry, buying a dongle once isn't a big deal. You can use it for multiple plugins, which need it too and you'll get a new one if it's broken. You may even put it in your insurance and get a replacement if it got lost (which is pretty rar).
The only disadvantage to me is the overhead with licence transfers. Anything else is nice and easy.

It is no big deal, but kind of a personal decission as 2ZrgE mentioned.
We don't talk about to buy fuel for your car.... we talk about to buy a piece of extra hardware, that makes sure that if that Car is stolen, you cannot use it.
That Car is not stolen, I have bought it (if would buy dongled software). So f*ck off with that shit, I'm not gonna pay for it - agree with 2Zrg.

It is just a good example of f**king the honest.
The customers of this software pay for stuff the don't need, which does not bring them any advantage or help or anything else to them. It has 0 value for them, still they pay for it - so that the company can stop ppl from using cracked software (earn 0$), but force them to not use it (earn 0$). Bullshit^n

[2ZrgE]

It's still punishment, and it drains a lot of money from the market. It's an overpriced solution that does not work in the long run (only for their pockets, of course)

(reminder: When some version of iLok protection got cracked, they sent out a letter to developers somewhat akin to "Oh, you should have upgraded to the new version, you silly people". So they force everyone to update everything every so and so many years, because, well, yeah, they're competent only in marketing... having their stuff cracked is part of their business strategy, so much should be obvious to everyone by now)

I disagree. Not long ago my pc broke and I had to finish important projects. I quickly got a 2nd pc as a temporary workstation replacement. All I had to do was put the dongles in and have fun... Some companies made me angry. I had to deactivate the old licence first, which I obviously couldn't. Talking to the support was timeconsuming. Sorry, but walking through 1000 activations, c&r, keyfiles is just a pita.

Also I talked to a someone long time ago who said mostly its the fault of the dev if a dongle protection failed. They can always configure the strength (degree of protection, vm, checksums) as well as the frequency of checking and the content that shoudl be checked.
Of course there are always some issues from the dongle companies, but the ones that have their own copy protection schemes, also fail more often (e.g. leaked keys & serials, bad implementation).

I prefer dongles over any other cp.

Having to buy a thing to use another thing I bought is just a no-go for me.

Imaging buying a car and your vendor says "Hey just to make it clear dude you also have to buy that thingy from that other company to be able to drive your new car" is and was always an absolutely absurd thought for my taste.

Good thing there'a other cars (and other software).

You don't need to buy fuel for your car? Amazing...

Sorry, buying a dongle once isn't a big deal. You can use it for multiple plugins, which need it too and you'll get a new one if it's broken. You may even put it in your insurance and get a replacement if it got lost (which is pretty rar).
The only disadvantage to me is the overhead with licence transfers. Anything else is nice and easy.

Well, fuel isn't the right analogy in this case, well whatever.

All I heard from customer reviews is that those dongles are overpriced and of shitty quality, in the end they are just some modified USB sticks right? Which you normally can get for free as advertisement giveaways quite often.

It's just a rip off as Urs said, and does only work because there are people who don't really care about the disadvantages (or getting ripped off by 'the pro companies'.)

[mystran]

Also I do not agree that software piracy does same dmg as stealing a Car, or even more.
What dmg does Zaphod have I steal his plugins. I say 0$, because I would not have not bought it anyhow (nothing against your plugins, just an example ).
If I steal a Mercedes from their factory, the dmg they have is equal to the cost to build that Car.

You are probably correct that the damage from stealing a car is proportional (not necessarily equal) to the cost of the car. In comparison, when someone illicitly distributes software (or a crack, whatever), that's comparable to stealing the design for said car and then producing free (or cheaper, whatever) cars to anyone who wants one. You could argue that you wouldn't have bought such a car if you didn't get it for free, but it should still be obvious that the total damage to the original manufacturer (who probably invested quite a bit on R&D to get those cars made) is likely to be far greater than just stealing a couple of cars, don't you think?

[PurpleSunray]

You are probably correct that the damage from stealing a car is proportional (not necessarily equal) to the cost of the car. In comparison, when someone illicitly distributes software (or a crack, whatever), that's comparable to stealing the design for said car and then producing free (or cheaper, whatever) cars to anyone who wants one. You could argue that you wouldn't have bought such a car if you didn't get it for free, but it should still be obvious that the total damage to the original manufacturer (who probably invested quite a bit on R&D to get those cars made) is likely to be far greater than just stealing a couple of cars, don't you think?

You talk about what dmg the cracker does to the company. That can be potentially huge, I agree.
I can even name a company that ran out of bizz because of a single crack (not it was no crack on copy protection, but they stole the AACS keys for blu-ray playback and that company got sued into bankrupt by license holders afterwards).

I talk about the dmg I do the company, if I donwload that crack and use it - asuming that I did not had the intention to buy it (but would rather look for another cracked software if there is no crack for yours).

edit: just to add - the example from above (AACS keys) is where you absolutly need good protection.
I wrote about that on my previos company, copy protection was minimal.
It was not because of lazy devs, but because there was way more important stuff to secure.
If they steal secrect keys or certificates, you can get bankrupt because of that.
So it was a very easy decission: what do we loose if ppl steal our softwar? That company estimated it to be minimal, since only very few ppl that use the crack would buy the product if there is no crack.
So copy protection was about to stop script kiddies.
Protecting the key storage, AES cipher ect pp was the advanced stuff where the focus was on.

[original flipper]

Hi

An issue for all of us is the sheer 'VARIETY' of copy protection.

You typically have dongles for Pace, ILOK, Reason and Steinberg - you have C/R from countless different developers, the software licencers and goodness knows what else.

So a 'BIG' accumulator of software could literally have dozens of different types of software copy protection going on - this is not really good ... is it?

The only non serial/Keyfile software I currently have is NI Komplete - although I have not used it recently and even they have got more demanding by only allowing activation if your DAW is on line (which mine is not).

I find it strange when I see low priced software using dongles - yes, I know it is to entice you to their more expensive products, but nevertheless it seems odd not to offer some products with via a serial - if only to test the water.