Login / Register  0 items | $0.00 New#KVRDeals
AstroCastro
Banned

Postby AstroCastro; Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:28 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist wrote:Anyway, if your sample library needs de-fizzing, don't blame your reverb for not doing it automatically.
Here's the thing: humans oversimplify (I'm doing it now) and jump to unfounded conclusions.
I have no doubt they were hearing something they thought they didn't like at the time.
Tomorrow it could be: "Mate, this TC 6000 does not have enough digital fizz."


It's not about sound library needing de-fizzing and fixing, it's about Valhalla Room adding harshness.

I've started using convolution reverbs since Sound Forge 6.
In FL Studio9 Fruity Convolver has been implemented and it quickly became my go to reverb.
You could sample any reverb you want, to create IR files, which helped me to analyze numerous plugins
because it had EQ part in it which would graphically present IR file, actually how xyz reverb works,
or rather its "footprint" if you will.

Here are some screenshots showcasing that harshness:

Image

3 presets from Valhalla Room and their footprints.
As you can see there is A LOT harshness within 2000Hz - 6000Hz.
That's what is causing "digital fizz" mentioned in the article, the same thing I encountered maybe 2 years ago. When I sampled Valhalla Room with Fruity Convolver it became more than obvious that it is producing a lot of harshness at high frequencies.
You can be deaf not to hear it, but you need to be blind not to see it.

Here are some other samples without harshness:
Image


You are absolutely free to continue laughing as much as you want and keep saying "Digital fizz, ha!",
facts are facts.

This is NOT about bashing Valhalla plugins because Valhalla Shimmer and Valhalla VintageVerb are NOT producing harshness because I tested them too:

Image

So, it's obvious that there is a "problem" with Valhalla Room producing harshness and maybe one day it will be fixed and get better. By removing that harshness it can only get better, not worse.

I can post you 150 of screenshots of other reverbs, Lexicon IR's or EastWest Spaces IR's, etc.,
you won't find that amount of harshness anywhere.
Stollmeister
KVRist
 
198 posts since 21 Nov, 2012

Postby Stollmeister; Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:50 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

valhallasound wrote:
sfxsound3 wrote:
bmanic wrote:I feel like the main disadvantages of Valhalla reverbs is that they don't tend to "mix themselves" in complex projects.


That's one.
Two - all kinds of annoying artifacts can appear depending on source and/or setting. Nothing that should be there if you want a reverberation effect. But he has explicitly said that he's going for the lo-fi and dirty.
So who would even consider Valhallas for orchestral?


Junkie XL, for one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amftd4M ... e&t=38m32s

(scroll to 38:35 for the discussion of ValhallaRoom)

In the video, Junkie XL (composer for Max Max: Fury Road, Deadpool, The Dark Tower, etc.) shows how he uses 2 instances of ValhallaRoom for orchestral tracks: one for the front, the second for the rear.

Alan Meyerson (engineer for Hans Zimmer) also uses ValhallaRoom alongside his Bricastis:

https://film-mixing.com/2016/07/28/film ... -meyerson/

A lot of other film composers and engineers use the Valhalla stuff, but these are two of the folks that have talked about it in interviews.

Sean Costello

I love Vroom for many things. However, isn't Tom here saying that he uses Vroom and Blackhole for synths and effects that need really long reverb? He later shows what he uses for the orchestral stuff and it is all Lexicon (by Uad?).
Last edited by Stollmeister on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
antithesist
KVRian
 
1399 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:31 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Captain Fruity:

Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.

Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?

It's boosted in that area?

Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.

Reverberators and real spaces are inherently not flat.

You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.

Next?

Oh, and lose the petty insults if you respond... all I said was "thanks for trying" to your condescending "let me try to explain with a simple example, blah, blah, blah."

I'll take my talking *ss over your oral "harshness" any day... wait, that didn't come out right (or did it?).

Added: assuming that there is "obviously" something wrong with VR is exactly what I meant about jumping to unfounded conclusions.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
AstroCastro
Banned

Postby AstroCastro; Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:23 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist wrote:Captain Fruity:
Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.
Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.


Captain KnowNothing:
When you sample algorithmic reverb you make 100% exact copy of a preset in a shape of IR.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?


In EQ part of Fruity Convolver you have a spectrogram of IR file which helps you to EQ IR file.
But, that's not the point....

It's boosted in that area?
Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.


...because you are at the same time reducing frequencies which should be there.
In a nutshell, the difference is similar to using a bad microphone and a good one.


You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.


The point is that Valhalla Room is creating 3 times more harshness than it should be.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?


If you knew anything about science you would know how science works: give the evidence, entire planet is free to prove you wrong. That's how science works.

In your case science works like this: You'll give zero evidence and keep bullshitting and making a moron out of yourself.

Please, don't put a word "science" into your mouth again until you understand how it works or else you'll be a laughing material and embarrass yourself and this entire discussion only proves on what educational and intellectual level you actually are which is: zero.
People like you are nothing but a waste of time.
User avatar
Fleer
KVRAF
 
3201 posts since 22 Aug, 2014, from Boston/Cambridge

Postby Fleer; Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:01 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Polonius: What do you read, my lord?
Hamlet: Words, words, words.
Armagibbon
KVRist
 
464 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Postby Armagibbon; Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:40 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Hey astrocastro thanks for all that. Love comparisons like this good shit! You got any fav verbs that don't do the whole harshness thing?
User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
3779 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:16 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

AstroCastro wrote:It's not about sound library needing de-fizzing and fixing, it's about Valhalla Room adding harshness.
I'm talking about facts while you are talking out of your ass.
...
Here are some screenshots showcasing that harshness:


Lexicon reverbs are famed for being dark, as any fule kno. It's hardly surprising that VVVerb, having been inspired by that type of reverb unit would also be fairly dark.

While we're playing the "assess your reverbs using pictures" game, here's an actual IR sample from a real hall (Stockholm Opera) handling a white noise impule vs ValhallaRoom set up to produce a similar response. Which one is the real hall, top or bottom? (The frequency range is 20->20kHz)

BTW, I can't find any presets on my system that correspond to those halls on VRoom. But it's worth noting that some of the different modes produce somewhat crunchier/harsh tails than the standard, more realistic spaces - this is, I believe, by design. Den's (very good) batch of presets, for example, use Narcissus a lot with one named after La Scala having a lot of high-mids energy.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
antithesist
KVRian
 
1399 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:59 pm Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

AstroCastro wrote:
antithesist wrote:Captain Fruity:
Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.
Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.


Captain KnowNothing:
When you sample algorithmic reverb you make 100% exact copy of a preset in a shape of IR.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?


In EQ part of Fruity Convolver you have a spectrogram of IR file which helps you to EQ IR file.
But, that's not the point....

It's boosted in that area?
Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.


...because you are at the same time reducing frequencies which should be there.
In a nutshell, the difference is similar to using a bad microphone and a good one.


You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.


The point is that Valhalla Room is creating 3 times more harshness than it should be.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?


If you knew anything about science you would know how science works: give the evidence, entire planet is free to prove you wrong. That's how science works.

In your case science works like this: You'll give zero evidence and keep bullshitting and making a moron out of yourself.

Please, don't put a word "science" into your mouth again until you understand how it works or else you'll be a laughing material and embarrass yourself and this entire discussion only proves on what educational and intellectual level you actually are which is: zero.
People like you are nothing but a waste of time.

SCIENCE

Your deductions are flawed, because your premises are... I don't have to prove you wrong, you just are.

Next?
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
Armagibbon
KVRist
 
464 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Postby Armagibbon; Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:44 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist... man I saw what you had there before. Was all that true for fact? I mean cus that was some serious shit and it got me wondering if I knew you from somewhere.
User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
 
13258 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:55 pm Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

snark aside, I don't really even care for their room sound and I suppose my taste will tend to be pretty different than theirs. VSL makes a really good convolution with a Hybrid Reverb version which adds an algo tail for lushness and includes 'rooms', 'chambers', 'studios', churches, plates and some special FX one so there are bright and dark ones in there and quite some variance. that's enough for me. But it's part of a 'Mastering' bundle that's a few hundred bucks. which I got on sale yrs ago.
User avatar
metalifuxx
KVRAF
 
2261 posts since 22 Mar, 2005, from Detroit

Postby metalifuxx; Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:59 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Next he will say Exponential Audio Nimbus is too harsh and distorted by using his fancy scientific graphs and not relying on his ears using good headphones or studio monitors
:lol: :roll:
Liero
KVRian
 
881 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Postby Liero; Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:05 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

My favorite orchestral reverb is/are the algorithms on the Eventide H8000 - on the software side the Lexicon LXP, which is just the PCM reverbs in another package.

I kinda agree about some of the criticism of Valhalla reverbs. To me they are the absolute BEST reverbs when you're doodling around your DAW, loading sounds, trying to make one instrument or sound by itself sound great. Nothing can beat the sheer detail and size of VintageVerb in that domain, it's just awesome.

That said, when mixing larger projects I repeatedly have problems getting Valhalla stuff blend in and play nice with other sounds. To me Valhalla stuff always sounds best 100% wet - it doesn't even blend well together with its own dry signal. I'm finding myself having to use lots of EQ and tricks, which is something that I don't have to do with the H8000 at all.

*That* said, I've bought all the Valhalla plugins and will never sell them. I love the pricing policy, quality, GUI and support.

My single challenge for Valhalla stuff in the future: A reverb algorithm that sounds great and blends in in the 25%-50% wetness range.
dreamvoid
KVRist
 
135 posts since 8 Jun, 2009

Postby dreamvoid; Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:20 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Liero wrote:I kinda agree about some of the criticism of Valhalla reverbs. To me they are the absolute BEST reverbs when you're doodling around your DAW, loading sounds, trying to make one instrument or sound by itself sound great. Nothing can beat the sheer detail and size of VintageVerb in that domain, it's just awesome.

That said, when mixing larger projects I repeatedly have problems getting Valhalla stuff blend in and play nice with other sounds. To me Valhalla stuff always sounds best 100% wet - it doesn't even blend well together with its own dry signal. I'm finding myself having to use lots of EQ and tricks, which is something that I don't have to do with the H8000 at all.


That is interesting - I intuitively went a similar route. I have all Valhalla reverbs except the Plates and first I was quite convinced but have problems to mix with them. There are usually many reverbs in my mixes alogside many tracks, even for shorter projects. There is a kind of graininess and harshness I can hear too, sorry. I too found the Lexicon PCM series far superior in the mixing stage and use Valhalla stuff more in sound design sessions or in strong colouring FX chains. The most harsh and grainy reverb in the Valhalla line up is Shimmer, although I like it from its sound direction, the long rooms literally break apart when used in a mix and ending more or less as noise. I know I'm spoiled by my TC6000 and Quantec reverb boxes but there are more smooth reverbs for ITB work than the Valhallas I have. The Eventide 2016 e.g. is really something special in this regard.
chk071
KVRAF
 
13896 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:30 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

bmanic wrote:I feel like the main disadvantages of Valhalla reverbs is that they don't tend to "mix themselves" in complex projects.. which is kind of a feature with the traditional high-end stuff. Take any high-end TC/Lexicon/Bricasti unit and you can just sort of send stuff to them, raise the faders and be done with it.

The exact opposite is true with reverbs that are "stubborn" and don't mix themselves. Some classic units fall into this category as well, like various spring reverbs and classic plates that can indeed benefit a lot from EQ and "massaging" the send to make it fit. I'd also group the later Lexicon PCM series into this category.. except perhaps the PCM 60 which again just seems to "mix itself" very well.

For orchestral stuff it's very important that a reverb simply works immediately without having to babysit it with EQ so that it blends. Complex projects in particular benefit from a reverb that just works.. whereas sparse/spartan projects can get away with almost an kind of reverb (from a technical perspective that is - Artistically you of course choose the one you like the most or subjectively fits the project).

Liero wrote:My favorite orchestral reverb is/are the algorithms on the Eventide H8000 - on the software side the Lexicon LXP, which is just the PCM reverbs in another package.

I kinda agree about some of the criticism of Valhalla reverbs. To me they are the absolute BEST reverbs when you're doodling around your DAW, loading sounds, trying to make one instrument or sound by itself sound great. Nothing can beat the sheer detail and size of VintageVerb in that domain, it's just awesome.

That said, when mixing larger projects I repeatedly have problems getting Valhalla stuff blend in and play nice with other sounds. To me Valhalla stuff always sounds best 100% wet - it doesn't even blend well together with its own dry signal. I'm finding myself having to use lots of EQ and tricks, which is something that I don't have to do with the H8000 at all.

*That* said, I've bought all the Valhalla plugins and will never sell them. I love the pricing policy, quality, GUI and support.

My single challenge for Valhalla stuff in the future: A reverb algorithm that sounds great and blends in in the 25%-50% wetness range.

Frankly, i find the Valhalla verbs are pretty extreme in what they do. VRoom sounds extremely clean, up to the point i had a hard time getting any use out of it, except for room reverberation for percussions, and Vintage Verb was so coloured that i had a hard time getting a "normal" reverb sound out of it which didn't sound like the psychedelic late 60's. ;)

And, to be totally honest, both your posts describe something i find holds true for many soft synths too. They may sound good while played for themselves, but, they lack that extra something which makes them sound "awesome", or they have a very narrow sweet spot where they sound great, and you really have to work hard to find that sweet spot. Anyway, i don't want to bash the Valhalla stuff, but, i find that other reverbs just sound more fitting to me, more pristine, more high end, or just more "familiar". To each his own.
Good synths don't have a sweet spot. They ARE the sweet spot.
Elektronisch
KVRAF
 
1532 posts since 3 Feb, 2010

Postby Elektronisch; Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:16 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

After watching the video what i saw EVERYBODY failed to point out that that the main quality of reverb is not in the Preset. In Spitfire's youtube video only presets are being compared wich makes whole video just a bullshit. I mean look at the variety of algorhytms VRoom has (or i do believe any of reverbs) wich give such different sound. Its just very bad comparison.
Last edited by Elektronisch on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
PreviousNext

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Effects