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AstroCastro
KVRer
 
10 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Postby AstroCastro; Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:28 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist wrote:Anyway, if your sample library needs de-fizzing, don't blame your reverb for not doing it automatically.
Here's the thing: humans oversimplify (I'm doing it now) and jump to unfounded conclusions.
I have no doubt they were hearing something they thought they didn't like at the time.
Tomorrow it could be: "Mate, this TC 6000 does not have enough digital fizz."


It's not about sound library needing de-fizzing and fixing, it's about Valhalla Room adding harshness.
I'm talking about facts while you are talking out of your ass.

I've started using convolution reverbs since Sound Forge 6.
In FL Studio9 Fruity Convolver has been implemented and it quickly became my go to reverb.
You could sample any reverb you want, to create IR files, which helped me to analyze numerous plugins
because it had EQ part in it which would graphically present IR file, actually how xyz reverb works,
or rather its "footprint" if you will.

Here are some screenshots showcasing that harshness:

Image

3 presets from Valhalla Room and their footprints.
As you can see there is A LOT harshness within 2000Hz - 6000Hz.
That's what is causing "digital fizz" mentioned in the article, the same thing I encountered maybe 2 years ago. When I sampled Valhalla Room with Fruity Convolver it became more than obvious that it is producing a lot of harshness at high frequencies.
You can be deaf not to hear it, but you need to be blind not to see it.

Here are some other samples without harshness:
Image


You are absolutely free to continue laughing as much as you want and keep saying "Digital fizz, ha!",
facts are facts.

This is NOT about bashing Valhalla plugins because Valhalla Shimmer and Valhalla VintageVerb are NOT producing harshness because I tested them too:

Image

So, it's obvious that there is a "problem" with Valhalla Room producing harshness and maybe one day it will be fixed and get better. By removing that harshness it can only get better, not worse.

I can post you 150 of screenshots of other reverbs, Lexicon IR's or EastWest Spaces IR's, etc.,
you won't find that amount of harshness anywhere.
Stollmeister
KVRist
 
161 posts since 21 Nov, 2012

Postby Stollmeister; Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:50 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

valhallasound wrote:
sfxsound3 wrote:
bmanic wrote:I feel like the main disadvantages of Valhalla reverbs is that they don't tend to "mix themselves" in complex projects.


That's one.
Two - all kinds of annoying artifacts can appear depending on source and/or setting. Nothing that should be there if you want a reverberation effect. But he has explicitly said that he's going for the lo-fi and dirty.
So who would even consider Valhallas for orchestral?


Junkie XL, for one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amftd4M ... e&t=38m32s

(scroll to 38:35 for the discussion of ValhallaRoom)

In the video, Junkie XL (composer for Max Max: Fury Road, Deadpool, The Dark Tower, etc.) shows how he uses 2 instances of ValhallaRoom for orchestral tracks: one for the front, the second for the rear.

Alan Meyerson (engineer for Hans Zimmer) also uses ValhallaRoom alongside his Bricastis:

https://film-mixing.com/2016/07/28/film ... -meyerson/

A lot of other film composers and engineers use the Valhalla stuff, but these are two of the folks that have talked about it in interviews.

Sean Costello

I love Vroom for many things. However, isn't Tom here saying that he uses Vroom and Blackhole for synths and effects that need really long reverb? He later shows what he uses for the orchestral stuff and it is all Lexicon (by Uad?).
Last edited by Stollmeister on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
antithesist
KVRian
 
1398 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:31 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Captain Fruity:

Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.

Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?

It's boosted in that area?

Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.

Reverberators and real spaces are inherently not flat.

You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.

Next?

Oh, and lose the petty insults if you respond... all I said was "thanks for trying" to your condescending "let me try to explain with a simple example, blah, blah, blah."

I'll take my talking *ss over your oral "harshness" any day... wait, that didn't come out right (or did it?).

Added: assuming that there is "obviously" something wrong with VR is exactly what I meant about jumping to unfounded conclusions.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
AstroCastro
KVRer
 
10 posts since 4 Aug, 2017

Postby AstroCastro; Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:23 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist wrote:Captain Fruity:
Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.
Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.


Captain KnowNothing:
When you sample algorithmic reverb you make 100% exact copy of a preset in a shape of IR.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?


In EQ part of Fruity Convolver you have a spectrogram of IR file which helps you to EQ IR file.
But, that's not the point....

It's boosted in that area?
Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.


...because you are at the same time reducing frequencies which should be there.
In a nutshell, the difference is similar to using a bad microphone and a good one.


You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.


The point is that Valhalla Room is creating 3 times more harshness than it should be.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?


If you knew anything about science you would know how science works: give the evidence, entire planet is free to prove you wrong. That's how science works.

In your case science works like this: You'll give zero evidence and keep bullshitting and making a moron out of yourself.

Please, don't put a word "science" into your mouth again until you understand how it works or else you'll be a laughing material and embarrass yourself and this entire discussion only proves on what educational and intellectual level you actually are which is: zero.
People like you are nothing but a waste of time.
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Fleer
KVRAF
 
2944 posts since 22 Aug, 2014, from Boston/Cambridge

Postby Fleer; Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:01 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Polonius: What do you read, my lord?
Hamlet: Words, words, words.
Armagibbon
KVRist
 
425 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Postby Armagibbon; Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:40 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Hey astrocastro thanks for all that. Love comparisons like this good shit! You got any fav verbs that don't do the whole harshness thing?
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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
 
3638 posts since 8 Jun, 2009, from UK

Postby Gamma-UT; Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:16 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

AstroCastro wrote:It's not about sound library needing de-fizzing and fixing, it's about Valhalla Room adding harshness.
I'm talking about facts while you are talking out of your ass.
...
Here are some screenshots showcasing that harshness:


Lexicon reverbs are famed for being dark, as any fule kno. It's hardly surprising that VVVerb, having been inspired by that type of reverb unit would also be fairly dark.

While we're playing the "assess your reverbs using pictures" game, here's an actual IR sample from a real hall (Stockholm Opera) handling a white noise impule vs ValhallaRoom set up to produce a similar response. Which one is the real hall, top or bottom? (The frequency range is 20->20kHz)

BTW, I can't find any presets on my system that correspond to those halls on VRoom. But it's worth noting that some of the different modes produce somewhat crunchier/harsh tails than the standard, more realistic spaces - this is, I believe, by design. Den's (very good) batch of presets, for example, use Narcissus a lot with one named after La Scala having a lot of high-mids energy.
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antithesist
KVRian
 
1398 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:59 pm Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

AstroCastro wrote:
antithesist wrote:Captain Fruity:
Harshness is no more technical of a term than fizz... it usually conotates distortion to me, though.
Impulse responses are LTI (linear time invariant) and do not capture non-linearities such as distortion.


Captain KnowNothing:
When you sample algorithmic reverb you make 100% exact copy of a preset in a shape of IR.

I don't know what your Fruity Loop graphs mean... EQ?


In EQ part of Fruity Convolver you have a spectrogram of IR file which helps you to EQ IR file.
But, that's not the point....

It's boosted in that area?
Big deal... use some inverse EQ to pull it back.


...because you are at the same time reducing frequencies which should be there.
In a nutshell, the difference is similar to using a bad microphone and a good one.


You're also missing all the modulation in IRs of algorithmic reverbs that use it... makes them sound different, especially convolved with a source.


The point is that Valhalla Room is creating 3 times more harshness than it should be.

I hope you don't try to do science for a job... wait, you're not the less smart of the two guys in the video are you?


If you knew anything about science you would know how science works: give the evidence, entire planet is free to prove you wrong. That's how science works.

In your case science works like this: You'll give zero evidence and keep bullshitting and making a moron out of yourself.

Please, don't put a word "science" into your mouth again until you understand how it works or else you'll be a laughing material and embarrass yourself and this entire discussion only proves on what educational and intellectual level you actually are which is: zero.
People like you are nothing but a waste of time.

SCIENCE

Your deductions are flawed, because your premises are... I don't have to prove you wrong, you just are.

Next?
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
Armagibbon
KVRist
 
425 posts since 20 Apr, 2017

Postby Armagibbon; Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:44 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

antithesist... man I saw what you had there before. Was all that true for fact? I mean cus that was some serious shit and it got me wondering if I knew you from somewhere.
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jancivil
KVRAF
 
12587 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:55 pm Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

snark aside, I don't really even care for their room sound and I suppose my taste will tend to be pretty different than theirs. VSL makes a really good convolution with a Hybrid Reverb version which adds an algo tail for lushness and includes 'rooms', 'chambers', 'studios', churches, plates and some special FX one so there are bright and dark ones in there and quite some variance. that's enough for me. But it's part of a 'Mastering' bundle that's a few hundred bucks. which I got on sale yrs ago.
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metalifuxx
KVRAF
 
2254 posts since 22 Mar, 2005, from Detroit

Postby metalifuxx; Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:59 am Re: Spitfire on the best orchestral reverb

Next he will say Exponential Audio Nimbus is too harsh and distorted by using his fancy scientific graphs and not relying on his ears using good headphones or studio monitors
:lol: :roll:
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