How to approach voice leading for non-classical music?

[jsaras]

The answers that you seek are found in the Equal Interval System (EIS).

How much does it cost to join Lilith Murphy's cult? Is it like the Scientology thing where you have to wait for the final volume to get the secret? Or does it need to be a whole chunk of books and lessons because it's "one simple rule" followed by a bucketload of exceptions?

It's not a cult though I will tell you that their marketing of the course is horrible. No argument there. I'm not in a position to change that, but I can tell you that the course is effective and every person that has studied it to any extent will say the same. The cost of the lessons varies from teacher to teacher. The "secret" to the extent there is one is revealed almost immediately; you learn to voicelead triads. That germ is eventually expanded to where you learn how to write in 12 real parts without doubling or dissonance. The course is about horizontal and vertical intervals in every possible combination over every possible root movement.

[jsaras]

Just to whet your appetite a bit, here's a short sequence of b13 chords with voice leading. This sort of thing is covered in Book 2 of the course.

MP3 audio: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/flat13.mp3

SCORE:

I dunno, enharmonically spelling out a diminished chord with the bassline sounds like a recipe for goofiness to me!

Why is that set of root movements off limits to you? Any and all root movements in any direction are fair game. The point of the example was precisely to demonstrate voiceleading over root movements that don't fit into the usual key-centered. The rules for voiceleading progresions for roots and harmonies that fit within key centers have been around for a long time and they're complicated. The question, as the original poster asked, is what do you do when you are out of that wheelhouse.

[jsaras]

The answers that you seek are found in the Equal Interval System (EIS).

I've been far too nice about this type of thing in the past.
That statement is bullshit. It might be some answer for you, it might even stand for your thought when you're stumped or if one just can't work without that kind of guide rule.

I compose music with my ear. Yes, I have some things I know and my decisions aren't naive. But I have ideas, I'm not stumped as to how to move. Whatever did we do without this system before?

The first harmony - what is that?
First of all, the spacing strongly suggests that G is its root
From there, we have an aug and a P 5th; a major 7th; and a 9th which moves to a #9. So, 'b13', then it's actually an Eb. Spell it right, first. D# from G is an augmented fifth.
Then, an E^7 9 with a flat 6 or b13. What's the point? Maybe that's cool, maybe it isn't, it does the opposite of whet my appetite.

I'm def not telling you what to like or how to proceed at all, but as an overarching theory, well, we might want to do things just very differently than whatever produced that thinking.

I'll ignore your vulgarity, that just reflects your character, but I will address your observations.

You are analyzing the example vertically, specifically from the bottom-up. This was composed horizontally. The enharmonic spelling discrepancy you noted is due to the polytonal/bi-tonal nature of the progression. If you look at just the treble clef it's D major - B major - Ab major - F major; all with correct voiceleading between the lines. The next two parts underneath the triads follow their own voiceleading and then there's the bass part. Easy-peasy. Once the writing is done, a vertical check of the intervals is necessary to check for dissonances. Specifically -9 intervals are to be avoided unless there is a -7 underneath it, and no -3 and -9 in a single structure; those are the only "rules" of the course.

If you have a means of writing harmonies of similar sophistication with correct lines I'd like to hear it and/or understand it.

Here's a longer thing that I wrote for one of my weekly homework assignments. It's not a great composition by any stretch, but I would have never intuited my way into anything remotely like it without the techniques learned in the course: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.co ... ormer2.mp3

[jsaras]

1duplicate post - delete

[Gamma-UT]

It's not a cult though I will tell you that their marketing of the course is horrible. No argument there.

I exaggerated a little, but the way that you can't really find out much about the method without engaging in what seems to be a vaguely defined course really puts me off. I think there were a pair of books published in the early days but they don't seem to have been made available since Lyle Murphy died.

The "secret" to the extent there is one is revealed almost immediately; you learn to voicelead triads. That germ is eventually expanded to where you learn how to write in 12 real parts without doubling or dissonance. The course is about horizontal and vertical intervals in every possible combination over every possible root movement.

It's not difficult to find out how to voicelead triads for common-practice music and work from there. The question is how that's extended to post-tonal music. Then you get into the question of "correct" vs idiomatic. My assumption is that EIS is built around early 20C jazz and is useful for that idiom. But post-tonal covers a lot of ground, so I'm sceptical of a broad "no second/ninth without a seventh" rule, for example.

At this point, though it takes a bit more work to apply, the theories developed by people such as David Huron (who recently published a book on voice leading from the music-psychology PoV) and Dmitri Tymoszco. And the latter's largely breaks down into "multiple lines that don't move very much individually", though what constitutes distance is analysed geometrically than pure interval spacing.

[jsaras]

EIS music theory is not based on any music style. It's 100% up to the student to determine how to apply the material and that's based purely on your taste and whatever musical sensibilities you bring to the table. The good/bad part of the course is that these interval combinations are presented without any reference to musical eras or styles and traditional key centers are avoided, though it's easy to make that adjustment if you want to be in that limited "box".

The "efficient" aspect of EIS is that there is a single set of terms that work throughout the entire course that apply equally well for simple triads all the way through 12-note structures and serial-like techniques.

The idea of the b9 interval (also called an outside octave dissonance; an octave plus a half-step) as being an "illegal" dissonance is not unique to EIS. You'll find it mentioned in Berklee's theory books as well. That isolated interval breaks the overtone series and it sounds bad. Putting a b7 underneath it softens the dissonance and dominant 7b9 chords, even incomplete ones and ones with a sus4, are perfectly OK. Also, when you get into more atonal writing you can move that b9 into a higher octave which renders it into something other than a b9 and that's great and the integrity of the overtone series is maintained. So, that should be the least controversial thing I've presented and your ear will readily confirm it.

[Gamma-UT]

The idea of the b9 interval (also called an outside octave dissonance; an octave plus a half-step) as being an "illegal" dissonance is not unique to EIS.

I know. That's not the point I was making.

Once again, no-one who hasn't taken the course knows the extent to which it can be applied. No amount of "it does this, it does that" is going to fix that. Murphy's family would probably find more success if they just published the darn books instead of wrapping the material up in this sooper-sekrit course. No-one is going to pay thousands to find out things they may well already know.

[Bojmir Raj Raj]

Just to whet your appetite a bit, here's a short sequence of b13 chords with voice leading. This sort of thing is covered in Book 2 of the course.

MP3 audio: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/flat13.mp3

SCORE:

I dunno, enharmonically spelling out a diminished chord with the bassline sounds like a recipe for goofiness to me!

Why is that set of root movements off limits to you? Any and all root movements in any direction are fair game. The point of the example was precisely to demonstrate voiceleading over root movements that don't fit into the usual key-centered. The rules for voiceleading progresions for roots and harmonies that fit within key centers have been around for a long time and they're complicated. The question, as the original poster asked, is what do you do when you are out of that wheelhouse.

Nothing's "off limits", depends on the music. I'm just not a fan of goofy, and from the "horizontal view point", a melody that drops an m3 then an aug2 is goofy and does NOT indicate horizontal thinking at all- more like, naively spelling out tertian chords.

[jancivil]

The answers that you seek are found in the Equal Interval System (EIS).

I've been far too nice about this type of thing in the past.
That statement is bullshit. It might be some answer for you, it might even stand for your thought when you're stumped or if one just can't work without that kind of guide rule.

I compose music with my ear. Yes, I have some things I know and my decisions aren't naive. But I have ideas, I'm not stumped as to how to move. Whatever did we do without this system before?

The first harmony - what is that?
First of all, the spacing strongly suggests that G is its root
From there, we have an aug and a P 5th; a major 7th; and a 9th which moves to a #9. So, 'b13', then it's actually an Eb. Spell it right, first. D# from G is an augmented fifth.
Then, an E^7 9 with a flat 6 or b13. What's the point? Maybe that's cool, maybe it isn't, it does the opposite of whet my appetite.

I'm def not telling you what to like or how to proceed at all, but as an overarching theory, well, we might want to do things just very differently than whatever produced that thinking.

I'll ignore your vulgarity, that just reflects your character, but I will address your observations.

So I said "bullshit" and you have some shit to say about my character like that. Yeah, YOU school ME on how to be.

If you have a means of writing harmonies of similar sophistication with correct lines...

I have the means to do whatever I want to. You said you won't have intuited anything like this without this method. But here you are condescending to me and you can't handle strong disagreement.

The b9 is illegal unless there's a minor seventh (in a tertial harmony, by definition), et cetera; but this is not married to any musical style, that's supposed to be abstract. That is pure bullshit, and it's depressing that it isn't obvious to you.

[jancivil]

Just to whet your appetite a bit, here's a short sequence of b13 chords with voice leading. This sort of thing is covered in Book 2 of the course.

MP3 audio: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/flat13.mp3

SCORE:

I dunno, enharmonically spelling out a diminished chord with the bassline sounds like a recipe for goofiness to me!

Why is that set of root movements off limits to you? Any and all root movements in any direction are fair game. The point of the example was precisely to demonstrate voiceleading over root movements that don't fit into the usual key-centered. The rules for voiceleading progresions for roots and harmonies that fit within key centers have been around for a long time and they're complicated. The question, as the original poster asked, is what do you do when you are out of that wheelhouse.

Nothing's "off limits", depends on the music. I'm just not a fan of goofy, and from the "horizontal view point", a melody that drops an m3 then an aug2 is goofy and does NOT indicate horizontal thinking at all- more like, naively spelling out tertian chords.

FTR, I don't find that line goofy, it does manage to be real conventional in a kind of deprecated 19th century stylee. I was irritated by the whole tone of his post to be honest, like here's a lecture and he's the professor with no compelling interest I can see. One supposes this is supposed to be showing off; then as a supposed exemplar of linear writing or something? pheh. Now he's pretty much proven my whole feeling about what he's doing. I'm too old for this shit and for suffering fools gladly.

Upshot, why do you need this whole approach to do this?
but yeah, a broken dim7 is the chief line, like it or not and this is supposed to herald some fantastic new solution to a problem I don't know who actually has.

"The question, as the original poster asked, is what do you do when you are out of that wheelhouse." There is no wheelhouse per se, what does one do when they're out of theirs, well I never ran into that. While I actually have sympathy for people that don't want to rely on academia for their musical education, this smacks of a sort of naïvety yet high in pretense. The OP hasn't the experience to have a 'wheelhouse' as far as I can tell.

Last time someone tried to foist this high-falutin type of thing, Neo-Riemann theory, I wasted a lot of time being far too generous to nobody's benefit and I'm unhappy with that in a big way since. I regret not just saying bullshit to that bullshit.

Don't mind me, you can dismiss me or whatever, but people say 'bullshit' like it's no big deal where I come from and I don't find insulting my character for what I said is a sign of good character at all, quite the contrary.

I wouldn't be too terrifically proud of your part-writing, jsaras, sinfvckingcerely.
I shouldn't even be posting, I had it too easy I guess. My bad.

[jancivil]

The idea of the b9 interval (also called an outside octave dissonance; an octave plus a half-step) as being an "illegal" dissonance is not unique to EIS.

FFS
Your belief in this smacks of religion when it gets this preposterous.

To the wider world: don't listen to shite like this. ALL music has a context and the methodology for this may not be the thing for that. In both romantic 'classical' styles and modern jazz the b9 is a f**king flat 9 which adds a little bit of tension to a dominant 7th chord; on the V in minor it occurs by default in the key. It's not strange, it's not illegal, it just is what it is. Way before we get into actual 'modern' practice, there's nothing to make illegal, that's some kind of weird conservative shit, or I don't know, pretentious, fatuous, BULLSHIT.

Where I, and most people that would be very interested in composition come from, is the 20th century, and serious composers were, to a person, 'avant-garde'. Even if you were conservative, you were aware, or you'd be elsewhere.

I suppose I am fortunate enough to have an actual critical apparatus. I remember the first 'master class' in composition I attended where the guy said, regarding the sharp 9 chord (the Foxy Lady chord, to me) "there is no such thing. It's a major/minor chord". Which is exactly the same failure of critical thinking I just saw.
I was 18 and saw thru that shit.

Gimme a break, particularly with this top-down arrogance, jsaras. Live a generation or two more and get back to me.

[jancivil]

The "efficient" aspect of EIS is that there is a single set of terms that work throughout the entire course that apply equally well for simple triads all the way through 12-note structures and serial-like techniques.

Do you have a vested interest? You're coming across as a salesman for something which may cost a good deal of money.

[jsaras]

The b9 is illegal unless there's a minor seventh (in a tertial harmony, by definition), et cetera; but this is not married to any musical style, that's supposed to be abstract. That is pure bullshit, and it's depressing that it isn't obvious to you.

If you can point me to some music that violates that rule that sounds good, then the argument would be INSTANTLY over. BTW, that rule is not limited to tertial harmony.

[jsaras]

The idea of the b9 interval (also called an outside octave dissonance; an octave plus a half-step) as being an "illegal" dissonance is not unique to EIS.

FFS
Your belief in this smacks of religion when it gets this preposterous.

To the wider world: don't listen to shite like this. ALL music has a context and the methodology for this may not be the thing for that. In both romantic 'classical' styles and modern jazz the b9 is a f**king flat 9 which adds a little bit of tension to a dominant 7th chord; on the V in minor it occurs by default in the key. It's not strange, it's not illegal

I NEVER said or even implied that. In fact, I said "dominant 7b9 chords, even incomplete ones and ones with a sus4, are perfectly OK. "

[jsaras]

I wouldn't be too terrifically proud of your part-writing, jsaras, sinfvckingcerely.
I shouldn't even be posting, I had it too easy I guess. My bad.

If you care to correct my part writing for this progression I anxiously await to see the score.