KVR Audio

Overflow · Post by **Overflow** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:13 am

Hello,

Sonar 4 soon will be out. Some features are impressive. Interesting - Sonar 4 has same audio engine as Sonar 3? Asking this because tried Sonar 3 and "gapless" audio engine wasn't gapless...(P4 3GHz, 1 Gig of memory, EMU 1820M). Tried to load some audio tracks, some plugins (CPU load ~ 40%)...now double click on audio clip...upss...audio engine chokes. I like workflow of Sonar, but with such audio engine Sonar is useless.

peace,
o.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:29 am

overflow quoth

Sonar 4 soon will be out.

We know, there are already several threads here about this.

Some features are impressive.

Yes

Interesting - Sonar 4 has same audio engine as Sonar 3?

Cakewalk say

"Optimized audio engine performance"

So, like happens with most other DAW upgrades, it wont be a totally new engine, but it will have been improved.

Asking this because tried Sonar 3 and "gapless" audio engine wasn't gapless...(P4 3GHz, 1 Gig of memory, EMU 1820M). Tried to load some audio tracks, some plugins (CPU load ~ 40%)...now double click on audio clip...upss...audio engine chokes.

Thats nothing to do with what 'gapless' actually is, IMO. And it could be caused by any number of things unrelated to Sonar, such as driver issues. But no host Im aware of can ever be guaranteed to continue playing back flawlessly no matter what actions you carry out.

There are some actions which will affect audio engine playback. Some will disrupt the audio engine. That is inevitable. The term 'gapless' refers to minimising the audible artefacts caused by those actions the audio engine can deal with. Im sure you can find a way to disrupt the audio engine playback of any other sequencer out there.

Since I can insert effects, and move sections of audio and MIDI around et.c. while the audio engine is playing, the fact that there's some minimal audio artefacts as a result is a negligible 'overhead'

Simple solution? Like people have been doing since the invention of the tape machine stop your playback, make your changes, then restart again. Its not hard, nor is it particularly inconvenient except to the most impatient of people.

I like workflow of Sonar, but with such audio engine Sonar is useless.

Funny, I and thousands of other people have had no problem creating work in Sonar. Hence it is not 'useless'.

Overflow · Post by **Overflow** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:41 am

I'm still on Logic 5.5.1. It has some bugs and shortcomings, but audio playback is smooth and screen redraw is superfast even with very high cpu load (~80%). With such high cpu load I'm able to open sample windows (by 2x clicking on clips), inserting plugins etc and playback NEVER chokes. Thats why I'm so surprised that Sonar's audio engine chokes even with 40% of cpu load...

no offence,
o.

WillieJenkins · Post by **WillieJenkins** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:59 am

post deleted

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:14 pm

As far as I understand Logic 5.5.1 does not support full PDC (plugin delay compensation). Delay compensation makes the 'live' insertion of effects et.c. far more complex to handle.

Since Logic 5.5.1 does not handle PDC as extensively as Sonar, it is far easier for the developers to deal with situations like inserting plugins et.c.

WillieJenkins · Post by **WillieJenkins** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:50 pm

whyterabbit, I applaud you for responding to posts like this, I always want to, but rarely do

Overflow · Post by **Overflow** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:02 pm

It doesn't have PDC, but I'm talking about plugins which don't have internal buffers (Elemental Audio Eqium in my case). Ok, agree - probably "useless" isn't right word but this choking really is geeting on my nerves. And second, insert some DXi (VAZ Plus here), make some automation curves (cutoff for example), hit play. Now try to move up or down (or left, right) one handle...again, audio engine stops.

peace,
o.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:15 pm

It doesnt matter whether the individual plugins you use do, or do not, introduce latency themselves; what matters is that a PDC-capable audio-engine like Sonar's, which has to always be calculating for compensation including when you dynamically change the effects plugins, requires far more sophistication in the audio engine than one which does not have to unilaterally adjust for PDC.

And for the record, I make a large amount of usage of parameter automation. On an Athlon XP2500, with a DMX6Fire soundcard, I do not get choking at 40% CPU usage when I edit it live, which is how I tend to work.

Overflow · Post by **Overflow** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:24 pm

And for the record, I make a large amount of usage of parameter automation. On an Athlon XP2500, with a DMX6Fire soundcard, I do not get choking at 40% CPU usage when I edit it live, which is how I tend to work.

Strange, because my Sonar chokes when I'm trying to move automation curve with mouse. No audio tracks even. Just plain VAZ Plus.

good luck,
o.

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:04 pm

instead of speculating on the performance of S4 how about we all take a wait an see attitude before we rush to judgement...

7XL · Post by **7XL** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:54 pm

S_A_P,

Stop speculating?????

How dare you come in here with that "wait and see" attitude. The people here at K-v-R have a diety given right to bash anything they want, even if it's not out yet or if they've never used it.

Senseless product bashing and unbased speculation are all that some people have going for them.

Wait and see indeed.

7XL · Post by **7XL** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:55 pm

BTW,

Them's just jokes son.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:22 pm

7XL quoth BTW,

Them's just jokes son.

We'll have none of that here. It gets you labelled 'Sonar fanboy'.

7XL · Post by **7XL** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:24 pm

I kind of like that title.

I wonder if I can get Ben to give it to me?

"Sonar Fanboy"

LoRez · Post by **LoRez** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:13 pm

overflow wrote:And for the record, I make a large amount of usage of parameter automation. On an Athlon XP2500, with a DMX6Fire soundcard, I do not get choking at 40% CPU usage when I edit it live, which is how I tend to work.

Strange, because my Sonar chokes when I'm trying to move automation curve with mouse. No audio tracks even. Just plain VAZ Plus.

good luck,
o.

Ever consider that your settings are not optimized (in Sonar and/or your PC)? I know, now you'll say "well x works fine so...". Doesn'tmean anything...is SONAR set up right for your system...that's the question. I assure you this doesn't happen to me or I'd have a freaking fit and get on the phone right away.

gapless audio engine of Sonar?