VCC, VTM, Blah, Blah, Blah...What The Hell Is Wrong With Me?

[momalle3]

Again, nobody is saying this. At least I'm not. I love all sounds. I love almost all kinds of music. Only things I can't stand are rap and reggae. Otherwise, I'm good to go. I've listened to everything from Carpenters to Kelly Clarkson to Beatles to Beastie Boys. And you can throw Bach, Dream Theater and Dragonforce into that list.

But I sure as hell don't want my Uriah Heep records to sound like my Schubert symphonies.

I mean my God, if everything sounded the same I'd probably slit my throat from boredom.

But when I want to do a retro style 60s or 70s piece, I want it to SOUND like a retro style 60s or 70s piece and not like Taylor Swift on a bad hair day.

Again, people ARE saying it! But you aren't.

I wanna say the reason your retro tracks don't sound retro has bupkis to do with analog mojo and everything to do with the fact that the entire recording process is different. Unlimited tracks, quantizing, isolation recording, one track at a time, limited numbers of takes, tape degradation, more need for better musicians etc. etc. A pre-feminist mentality. Black people who have living memories of segregation. Everybody smoking cigarettes in the studio. No cell phones.

Why does my modern fiberglass sailboat (note I do not have a sailboat) not make me feel like I'm in a Patrick O'Brien novel about the napoleonic wars? Because it's about way more than the boat. How come dressing up like Johnny Reb and chargin up the hill at Gettysburg doens' feel like the real thing? I have an analog wool uniform!

IMHO all you can do is reference or nod to or recall earlier sounds. You can signal "retro" without sounding the same, which isn't really possible. That's what I like about the Goodhertz stuff

[jinxtigr]

"An EDM track that sounds like it was recorded in the 60s" Must have been done! Can anybody think of an example?

I'm working on it

Consider this: Geoff Emerick is on record (in his book) as saying the reason Abbey Road sounds and feels different from the other Beatles records, is that it's using a transistor mixing desk. Previous Beatles used a tube desk. He, and the whole band, reacted with dismay at the new desk which sounded more 'hi-fi' but with less guts and impact, and it affected the arrangement and composition for the album.

We increasingly have the access to ALL manner of gear: people can pick what they like but it's odd to think that we all must make do with the plastic mayonnaise jar. Even if it's a plastic mayonnaise jar with 'TUBE' written on it

Or consider Boards Of Canada, then Autechre. Wouldn't work if you swapped their recording/mixing processes. What you use affects your arrangement and composition. Eno was right, the studio's an instrument.

[wagtunes]

I wasn't going to post this but the hell with it. I'm more than used to the insults around here. If it gets really out of hand and people start getting nasty I'll just lock up the thread.

Some tech specs

9 tracks and 2 group channels

Drums
Bass
2 Rhythm Electric Guitars
Lead Guitar
B3 Organ
Lead Vocal
2 Background Vocals

TG12345 on each individual track

Master Buss

TG12345
Kramer Master Tape
Cuttertone
Fabfilter Limiter

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -on-backup

[plexuss]

Hey Wag. interesting track. one thing I hear is a ton of that digital/modelled saturation which is probably coming from TG12345. It creates that kind of fuzzy/fluffy upper mid cloudiness you probably hear. I mean compare it to a dense mix of a commercial CD and you'll hear what I mean. In my experience that is just an artifact of working ITB especially analogue modelled plugins. As you can hear, its too much so easing back on the driving those plugins will help. The problem is the cummulative effect of all that saturation.

[wagtunes]

Hey Wag. interesting track. one thing I hear is a ton of that digital/modelled saturation which is probably coming from TG12345. It creates that kind of fuzzy/fluffy upper mid cloudiness you probably hear. I mean compare it to a dense mix of a commercial CD and you'll hear what I mean. In my experience that is just an artifact of working ITB especially analogue modelled plugins. As you can hear, its too much so easing back on the driving those plugins will help. The problem is the cummulative effect of all that saturation.

If I ease back on them it just sounds like everything else. So in other words, what I'm trying to do is impossible. Good to know.

Still, I'm pleased with the results. To my ears, it doesn't sound like the vanilla canned stuff that everything ITB sounds like these days.

That's good enough for me.

[kvaca]

Hey Wag. interesting track. one thing I hear is a ton of that digital/modelled saturation which is probably coming from TG12345. It creates that kind of fuzzy/fluffy upper mid cloudiness you probably hear. I mean compare it to a dense mix of a commercial CD and you'll hear what I mean. In my experience that is just an artifact of working ITB especially analogue modelled plugins. As you can hear, its too much so easing back on the driving those plugins will help. The problem is the cummulative effect of all that saturation.

If I ease back on them it just sounds like everything else. So in other words, what I'm trying to do is impossible. Good to know.

Still, I'm pleased with the results. To my ears, it doesn't sound like the vanilla canned stuff that everything ITB sounds like these days.

That's good enough for me.

@wag, Im glad you have changed your mind about posting your audio...
but I agree with plexuss about cumulative effect of that digital saturation - its not good for this kind of music and I dont think that bouncing tracks can make it better like before somebody supposed...probably thats why you wisely decided to not go this way...
just one question left - this topic is about VCC and VTM - have you used them?

[DuX]

No momalle3, I didn't say you can't make a great production only ITB, but it might sound that way. I do believe, though, that it is still impossible to do a convincing 60s, or whatever old decade, sounding production ITB.

For me, personally, it just sounds too sterile doing it all ITB and even when using all the analogue emulation plugins. With some help of the real analogue outboard I can get the sound I want.

Recording everything properly through the outboard hardware and even using it to resample tracks through it into the DAW, then using plugins on top is the only solution that gives me the sound I want. I couldn't do it without the plugins, though. They help massively, but the outboard hardware does give me the perfect sheen on top. And I'm not talking 60s production here. More like 90s, maybe 80s. That's the sound I'm after and like.

Sober as an apple today.

Absolutely love your comments, jinxtigr!

[Chris Ramey]

I wasn't going to post this but the hell with it. I'm more than used to the insults around here. If it gets really out of hand and people start getting nasty I'll just lock up the thread.

Some tech specs

9 tracks and 2 group channels

Drums
Bass
2 Rhythm Electric Guitars
Lead Guitar
B3 Organ
Lead Vocal
2 Background Vocals

TG12345 on each individual track

Master Buss

TG12345
Kramer Master Tape
Cuttertone
Fabfilter Limiter

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -on-backup

What did you do in terms of reverb? The thing that jumps out at me in terms of "not vintage" is that everything seems so "multi-tracky." What I mean is, everything sounds like it is isolated from the rest, rather than a band playing in a room together. It sounds like the cymbals are in a different room than the drums, and the guitars are in a different room entirely. If you go and listen to, say, a Led Zeppelin album, it sounds like a band all tracking together at once in the same space (even if it wasn't necessarily). A lot of what makes the old music great is that it sounds like a band playing as a single entity, rather than a bunch of individuals in a studio.
I'm not trying to be mean, just offering some honest feedback. Not everything critical is an insult.

[experimental.crow]

i've listened to my fair share of vinyl , eight track and cassette ,
and i never encountered anything that induced ear fatigue
like that track did ...
does not feel vintage in any way, shape or form ...

[wagtunes]

Hey Wag. interesting track. one thing I hear is a ton of that digital/modelled saturation which is probably coming from TG12345. It creates that kind of fuzzy/fluffy upper mid cloudiness you probably hear. I mean compare it to a dense mix of a commercial CD and you'll hear what I mean. In my experience that is just an artifact of working ITB especially analogue modelled plugins. As you can hear, its too much so easing back on the driving those plugins will help. The problem is the cummulative effect of all that saturation.

If I ease back on them it just sounds like everything else. So in other words, what I'm trying to do is impossible. Good to know.

Still, I'm pleased with the results. To my ears, it doesn't sound like the vanilla canned stuff that everything ITB sounds like these days.

That's good enough for me.

@wag, Im glad you have changed your mind about posting your audio...
but I agree with plexuss about cumulative effect of that digital saturation - its not good for this kind of music and I dont think that bouncing tracks can make it better like before somebody supposed...probably thats why you wisely decided to not go this way...
just one question left - this topic is about VCC and VTM - have you used them?

Didn't use them because I don't own them. Heard nothing in any of the demos that convinced me to get them. Everything I used as far as channel strips and tape machines is listed in the post with the track itself.

[wagtunes]

I wasn't going to post this but the hell with it. I'm more than used to the insults around here. If it gets really out of hand and people start getting nasty I'll just lock up the thread.

Some tech specs

9 tracks and 2 group channels

Drums
Bass
2 Rhythm Electric Guitars
Lead Guitar
B3 Organ
Lead Vocal
2 Background Vocals

TG12345 on each individual track

Master Buss

TG12345
Kramer Master Tape
Cuttertone
Fabfilter Limiter

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -on-backup

What did you do in terms of reverb? The thing that jumps out at me in terms of "not vintage" is that everything seems so "multi-tracky." What I mean is, everything sounds like it is isolated from the rest, rather than a band playing in a room together. It sounds like the cymbals are in a different room than the drums, and the guitars are in a different room entirely. If you go and listen to, say, a Led Zeppelin album, it sounds like a band all tracking together at once in the same space (even if it wasn't necessarily). A lot of what makes the old music great is that it sounds like a band playing as a single entity, rather than a bunch of individuals in a studio.
I'm not trying to be mean, just offering some honest feedback. Not everything critical is an insult.

Try to answer as best as I can.

1) I didn't use reverb on the master buss if that's what you mean. And I didn't use the same reverb on each of the instruments.

2) Maybe the reason Led Zeppelin sounds like a band playing is because they are a band playing. I don't know how to make my stuff sound like a band playing. I guess that's another course in music recording altogether. Maybe someday I'll take that course.

3) One thing I know it's not is timing issues. Everything is quantized so any performance problems were corrected. I did play all instruments in real time and nothing was step entered. Not sure if that matters one way or the other.

4) Thanks for the feedback. I'm not a professional.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

.If you go and listen to, say, a Led Zeppelin album, it sounds like a band all tracking together at once in the same space (even if it wasn't necessarily).

Oh no, they totally were all tracked together. There are Led Zeppelin multitracks out in the wild and the amount of guitar and bass bleed in the drums is completely ridiculous. So damn loud. Sounds so good on record. If you can find them, they'd worth seeking out from a pure audio geek perspective.

[Googly Smythe]

I wasn't going to post this but the hell with it. I'm more than used to the insults around here. If it gets really out of hand and people start getting nasty I'll just lock up the thread.

Some tech specs

9 tracks and 2 group channels

Drums
Bass
2 Rhythm Electric Guitars
Lead Guitar
B3 Organ
Lead Vocal
2 Background Vocals

TG12345 on each individual track

Master Buss

TG12345
Kramer Master Tape
Cuttertone
Fabfilter Limiter

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -on-backup

I tend to agree that the TGs are overcooked. But I think that's just by choice, not in error. And the vocals are more natural than usual, so that's a plus.
Also, I think you may have over-adjusted the time-machine controls - sounds more like the 50s!

[wagtunes]

I wasn't going to post this but the hell with it. I'm more than used to the insults around here. If it gets really out of hand and people start getting nasty I'll just lock up the thread.

Some tech specs

9 tracks and 2 group channels

Drums
Bass
2 Rhythm Electric Guitars
Lead Guitar
B3 Organ
Lead Vocal
2 Background Vocals

TG12345 on each individual track

Master Buss

TG12345
Kramer Master Tape
Cuttertone
Fabfilter Limiter

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -on-backup

I tend to agree that the TGs are overcooked. But I think that's just by choice, not in error. And the vocals are more natural than usual, so that's a plus.
Also, I think you may have over-adjusted the time-machine controls - sounds more like the 50s!

Yes, everything was done intentionally including the overcooking. That was pretty much what I was going for.

50s? Yeah, I guess that's a possibility. Those records were darn noisy.

[plexuss]

I didn't bounce tracks. As it sounds now, I was afraid bouncing would turn this into pure noise so I left it as it was. I think the overall sound is what I was going for.

One thing you can try is to look for resonances in your mix. For example there is a pretty overt one at around 3.5k. if you use an EQ centred around 3.5k with a medium-narrow q and boost you will hear it. then you can cut it to taste. I think there are a few loud resonances you could cut to make space for everything else in the mix.

Of course it would be better to do this in the mix and find the offending tracks but that takes more time.

Here's a technique I use: use an EQ such as Pro-Q2 that is visual, create one band that is very narrow and boost it. then slide it along the freq spectrum from low to high and listen for places where its obviously much louder. it helps if you can solo the band. make a note of where these points are because they are likely resonances that are consuming dynamic range. then place a narrow curve at each point and cut and q to taste.