VCC, VTM, Blah, Blah, Blah...What The Hell Is Wrong With Me?

[n9]

So for an example on a small scale:

I like to record things to my 1986 era Marantz portable tape machine. I like the sound and the feel of the tape. But it is a pain in the ass to do this. For a long time I was bouncing audio out of my DAW to the Marantz and then back in.. and I loved the result. I also love tape loops. I used to make them with a reel to reel and I got a lot of pleasure out of that. But I no longer have a reel to reel and a long time I ago I switched to looper hardware and software instead. But where is the tape? The warble and the fuzz and the sound of the splice?

So I decided to get the sound of my Marantz into my looper setups. I bought u-he satin and I worked and worked and worked with it. I found that I got some nice sounds but I couldn't get the sound of the Marantz out of it. Then I thought about it. What is the real audio path for my Marantz? It is sounds -> mic -> pre -> tape to record. And then to play back tape -> amp -> preamp -> speaker -> air. So I built a setup that went (digital audio) -> Kush Omega A -> u-he Satin -> u-he Satin -> Kush Omega A -> comp/limiter.

The result was so much better. So much better that it was remarkable. Things were certainly starting to sound very real indeed. THEN I went into this signal flow and inserted utility plugins everywhere so that I could control the gain staging. If you feed a weak signal into something that is providing saturation you won't get what you want. In the old days the noise floor would direct you to maximize your signal everywhere to keep a high signal to noise ratio but there really isn't much noise now and even relatively small loss of dynamic range so people feel audio into something like Satin at -20db and wonder why it sounds flat. So you go step by step and get the signal right: neither too hot or too cool at each step. AND you get the nice bit where you can push your pres a little with a certain sound to see what happens and to keep the good stuff. And develop an understanding of how the signal and the gain and the saturation works through all these stages.

In the end when I AB tested with my Marantz I had not only nailed it as in my setup could give me the depth and sonic quality that I liked about the tape machine but it gave me a toolkit to make other configs that I liked more or that sounded better with different material.

I saved those configs as Audio Racks and I use them all the time. Or rather my newer variants: right now I like using utility (remember gain staging) -> bx_console E -> Softube Tape -> Softube Tape -> bx_console E -> utility for this. A subtle wow and flutter in two sequential instances of the tape plugin is really nice (and makes sense, too, as you'd get the effect when you record AND when you play back.)

This feels like what you need to do to sound like 1968. I guess the good news is that even though it is a lot of work it is still like 1% of the work that an Alan Parsons did to get things sounding the way that he liked them.

[n9]

Not at all. You can figure it out pretty quickly if you set your intention to figuring it out. But like in all things if you're just kind of tinkering around it will take a long time. No one that built or ran a studio in 1968 was just tinkering around with it for an hour or two every couple of days. They were working hard and intending to learn everything about what they had. They were writing things down, internalizing what worked and what didn't, etc.

[n9]

Funny you should mention this. I just integrated my real tube tape echo into my DAW. So now I can run audio from soft synths through it and record the resulting audio back into the DAW for mixing. I used to use echoplexes back in the 70s and 80s. I had 3 of them at one time. Great machines but not very well made and quite noisy and inconsistent. Fulltone did a complete re-engineering and build with high quality design and materials - this is what I am using now. Here's a track I just did just experimenting with running DAW synth audio out and throught he tape echo and back into the DAW. the synth is Repro-1.

When I did this, my mind immediatly brought back a ton of memories from when I was a kid using echoplexes. Love that sound! I have many of the best software tape echos - they are close to the sound but nothing sound like the real deal.

https://soundcloud.com/plexus-productio ... -tape-echo

This track is really good. Inspirational and just luscious sounding. Thanks for sharing.

[DuX]

@n9 This is what I was trying to do 5 and more years ago. It's just deluding yourself that it works that way. Please, no offence. You have to combine what you said with some outboard. That's the only way for now. Primarily it is very important how you record into the DAW and it's best that it goes through some compressor, EQ, preamp that sounds really good. I also use a Soundtracs console which is the centrepiece of everything and only when I get the sound I want I record it into the DAW for further processing. I firmly believe now in this hybrid approach after fiddling with ITB for almost 20y [long story....].

For me, the sound you get ITB even with great expertise is not that. It is too static and aliasing creeping all over it.

Weirdly, it matters even more when you're doing noisy and edgy stuff like I do, because digital distortions, overdrives and compressors create even more aliasing than your normal plugins.

Well, thinking about it some more, maybe it is possible to make something 60s jazzy or acoustic sounding ITB... it depends on what you're trying to do, I guess.

And then again, if you're satisfied with the results ITB - great! I couldn't be happier for you, really. It is me who is not.

[n9]

wow. delusional? shrug. a lot has changed in five years.

[DuX]

Well, so far I haven't encountered any plugins that can emulate the analogue properties and I mean it's randomness that gives audio a kind of "3D" quality, spaciousness, if you wiil, properly. All they focus on is saturation with harmonics. But the audio still sounds too static to my ears. And the aforementioned aliasing is annoying. When you record your tracks with all these analogue qualities already in, it sounds better. It is simple, really. I also know what I'm talking about, I'm not one of those "audiophile" types. "It sounds more creamy" LOL WTF "creamy" means? In this case slight imperfections in phase, frequency, stereo image and noise, without any aliasing is those qualities that make analogue sound still unobtainable ITB.

I'm not saying one should have a $1mil of outboard hardware, either. Just some nice, not very expensive outboard, to play with before you record it into a DAW and also process some tracks with while mixing and mastering. I'm talking low-range SPL, SSL, Focusrite, Drawmer and similar quality hardware. Then add some guitar pedals and FX that can nicely dirty up your sounds. Believe me, it is much easier than using 10 plugins on each channel, which is what I used to do, just like you.

Quality mixing consoles can be had for peanuts these days, too. But I'm not really talking about a $10 cassette players, 4-tracks and low-quality audio equipment like that. That has its uses, but obviously not for tracking or mastering, just experimenting. Which is also fine with me.

[n9]

oy vey. have fun with all that.

[n9]

You can do anything with anything. It's just a matter of knowledge and how trained your ears are. And a little thing called common sense, really.

[DuX]

I do have fun with all that, much more than ever before. Studio that I worked in and the studio I had before was never so much fun, cause yes - having only analogue studio is not that much fun. I so wanted to use a PowerMac at the time... but its cost was very prohibitive, much more than today.

Now I don't have to edit everything with the mouse all the time and stare at the screen so much. I've always preferred more tactile experience, as well as more lively sound of analogue, but when it comes to editing and mixing that's where digital shines!

I've worked in a studio many years ago before I started my own that I had to sell to some unfortunate circumstances called "poverty". I started using VSTis when I bought a PC in ~'96, until then I used Atari and Cubase. So yes, I have knowledge, great equipment and very trained ears. Why would I otherwise say that VSTis sound static? There's no movement in phase, frequencies, nothing. It sounds perfect, aliasing aside. I love the sound of digital, too! But in another way.

The combination of having a whole analogue hardware chain with digital editing and mixing is just fantastic! Except that total recall is not really possible, but that's another story. I've devised a different workflow and everything I put into the DAW is recallable... so I manage OK.

But I'm not going to disagree with your "you can do anything with anything", because that's what I've been saying to everybody my whole life. What's the most important is creativity and passion for your work! Tools are secondary, but you can't do music entirely without them. Unless you enjoy playing an instrument all the time, that is.

I think we're having a really interesting discussion here. Why would wagtunes close this thread? I rarely find anything interesting to talk about at KVR these days... Boooring. Hell, even you got interesten n9! And you joined in 2002 and have only 80 posts since then!

[sfxsound3]

There's no movement in phase, frequencies, nothing. It sounds perfect, aliasing aside.

Yeah, right...

[camsr]

Noise is better than aliasing? Since when!

[J4R1O]

I think we're having a really interesting discussion here. Why would wagtunes close this thread? I rarely find anything interesting to talk about at KVR these days.

Yes, this is interesting! I've even bookmarked this thread and I'm reading this everyday.

I'm in the middle of recording and producing a 60's-70's (early 70's) sounding project and will post some samples/links later in December-January for you to listen so you guys can tell me your opinion how I succeeded.

Please, wagtunes, don't close this thread...

[wagtunes]

The thread will stay open as long as everybody stays respectful. So far, I agree. This has been a very interesting thread and a real eye opener for me. Now I understand why some people dismiss these analog emulations. They really aren't like the real thing for reasons that I am now finally understanding. And no, my DAW recordings do not sound like my recordings from back in the 70s and 80s when I was recording on a Teac A3440 and a Tascam mixer.

[DuX]

Noise is better than aliasing? Since when!

Well, in my mind noise is better than aliasing because it doesn't influence the sound in any way, except that you get some background noise, that is. Millions of records have background noise in them and that didn't stop them from selling, right?

And it's not like we're talking noise at -40dB also. More like between -70 and -80dB which people can rarely even hear at normal listening levels.

Background noise is always around us, too. It's natural. You never hear total silence in nature, unless you live in an anechoic chamber. Aliasing isn't and it changes the sound in an unpleasant, unnatural way. There's no aliasing in nature because analogue has infinite bandwidth. It's just physics. If it didn't change the sound and sound nasty why would plugin developers try to get rid of it? Have you ever really heard what it sounds like? It's the main reason why most of the guitarists still prefer hardware over ITB effects, but they usually don't know why. They just prefer the sound of their hardware pedals and amps for "some reason".

So yes, noise is not just better than aliasing. It is much better!

[DuX]

Speaking of noise... I just found this at Youtube Beat Magazin channel. What an interesting idea! It can't get more analogue than that. Does he care about the noise? I don't think so. But creativity and fun... and non-natural natural sound - yes.

People should stop thinking "inside the box"! Pun absolutely intended, of course.


Cheers!