I ran across this at Saws forum.
I hope he doesnt mind but hes saying we need to get the word out to our audio card manufactuars so they will start to support this new driver(DWave).
I would hope a place dedicated to audio such as KVR would post some message about this to where everyone could see it.
The Mixtreme 192 audio card from Sydec is using this driver fully implemented with great results!
Bob L - "ASIO... I don't like the loosness of it... drivers try to control the app... it should be the other way around, in my opinion.... the driver simply needs to move data to and from ram as efficiently as possible... not take control of everything and dictate buffer formats and sizes etc to the app.
Too many formats... too much splitting and merging of data, in all kinds of possible formats... the app needs to try to handle way too many possibilities... its very complex inside an engine like SAWStudio...
ASIO is too easily stepped on by Windows and other threads... there is no room whatsoever for any interruptions in data flow... which will ALWAYS happen at the most inopportune times in Windows... when it does... ASIO spits out repeats of the last buffer... horrible sound...
I won't touch true WDM... its probably the worst driver model I've ever fooled with...
At least with the MME, I can control sending multiple buffers ahead when I know Windows might interfere with data flow... like when its about to repaint 15 windows onscreen... or when the app is about to minimize...etc..
With ASIO... there is only one buffer playing... and one filling... any interruptions whatsoever... and you have a glitch... and a nasty one at that in most cases...
With DWave... everything is different... DWave does not require any communication between the app and driver during playback or record... no thread interruptions... no context switching between Rings... the driver already knows where to look for the data and pulls it at its own hardware rate without needing to interrupt Windows in any way to ask the app for the next buffer... the app fills the buffers as far in front as it wants... when it wants... without any need to talk to the driver directly during playback or record... the difference is beyond better... at least in my opinion.
I'd love to see more soundcards supporting it... but unfortunately, until SAWStudio has sales in the tens of thousands, that most likely wont happen.
I wish they were more concerned with the possible performance and quality benefits, but as long as they can sell mass numbers of products with lots of advertising and political connections, things most likely wont change.
Thanks to the former Sonorus and Dirk from the former Soundscape for jumping headfirst into making the idea come alive, so at least we could see it work and give those that said this model couldn't fly a chance to see it in the air.
With more interest from other soundcard companies, we could really nail down any remaining loose ends and develop it to be what the standards driver models should have been."
Bob L tells truth about Windows auido drivers
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Robert Randolph Robert Randolph https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7328 - KVRAF
- 2226 posts since 25 May, 2003 from Saint Petersburg, Florida
Uh oh.... *sigh*
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- KVRAF
- 2549 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Care to elaborate on that?Robert Randolph wrote:Uh oh.... *sigh*
Am I to think that this idea isn't really an improvement over ASIO, or are you just dreading a possibly long and controversial battle to establish a new defacto standard?
Personally, I'm no driver expert. I have no idea which would be better. My only hope is that the better solution become common practice.
later,
McLilith
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Robert Randolph Robert Randolph https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7328
- KVRAF
- 2226 posts since 25 May, 2003 from Saint Petersburg, Florida
It is certainly a better idea... but Im sure it'll bring on lots of arguments 
Im in the process of buying a sydec card specifically to use dwave drivers. The benefits are quite extreme...
Unfortunately storng opinions are often met with stronger opinions here on kvr, which equals debates.. senseless debates
Im in the process of buying a sydec card specifically to use dwave drivers. The benefits are quite extreme...
Unfortunately storng opinions are often met with stronger opinions here on kvr, which equals debates.. senseless debates
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Hard to say...
I think that despite bickering over hosts, etc., most of us will agree that ASIO is a shit-tastic driver. It had its use and it had its moment in the sun, but it didn't grow; and as a result, we're suffering for it as our compositions and tools grow increasingly sophisticated.
I'd be thrilled to see ASIO bite the dust, as long as it's replaced with something useful. This DWave might be the answer, but I don't know enough about it to form an actual opinion on it.
Greg
I think that despite bickering over hosts, etc., most of us will agree that ASIO is a shit-tastic driver. It had its use and it had its moment in the sun, but it didn't grow; and as a result, we're suffering for it as our compositions and tools grow increasingly sophisticated.
I'd be thrilled to see ASIO bite the dust, as long as it's replaced with something useful. This DWave might be the answer, but I don't know enough about it to form an actual opinion on it.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 9064 posts since 1 Aug, 2003
interesting post.. this dwave driver model sure sounds promising.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 9 posts since 29 May, 2004
Very true RR.
My grand thought was 'more is better'.
Even if someone is totally satisfied with current drivers....the more out there the better.
A simple email to your audio card co. to help out a fellow musician shouldnt be to much to ask.....but
And,KVR Staff,I did not mean to imply that if you dont post a message for all to see that you guys are not doing a great job.
I totally understand the political side and that you guys should be in the middle on most subjects like this.
If anyone would be so kind as to email your audiocard manufactuar and ask about the new DWave driver I and a few others would be very grateful.
thanx
My grand thought was 'more is better'.
Even if someone is totally satisfied with current drivers....the more out there the better.
A simple email to your audio card co. to help out a fellow musician shouldnt be to much to ask.....but
And,KVR Staff,I did not mean to imply that if you dont post a message for all to see that you guys are not doing a great job.
I totally understand the political side and that you guys should be in the middle on most subjects like this.
If anyone would be so kind as to email your audiocard manufactuar and ask about the new DWave driver I and a few others would be very grateful.
thanx
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Robert Randolph Robert Randolph https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7328
- KVRAF
- 2226 posts since 25 May, 2003 from Saint Petersburg, Florida
Ill just mention this isnt a proprietary Sawstudio thing. He stated he's willing to release the necassary things for other people to support it from what Ive seen written...
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- KVRAF
- 2549 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Where can I find good on-line reference information for the DWave driver? I would need to give my audio card manufacturer some good reasons to pursue this. A link to a good web site about this would certainly help.MotuMan wrote:If anyone would be so kind as to email your audiocard manufactuar and ask about the new DWave driver I and a few others would be very grateful.
Which application softwares currently support the DWave driver? Which audio cards? Have any of the VST host developers announced intentions to support DWave?
I'm all for starting an email campaign for a better driver, but I need some good information to put in those emails.
thanks,
McLilith
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- KVRian
- 1313 posts since 29 Mar, 2002 from Salt Lake City, Utah - U.S.A.
Hmmmm.
Well I personally like some standards. Midi for example. Sure the new MLan by Yamaha sounds neat, and is definetly more sophisticated, and in a way I wish it would become the new standard, but still. We gonna stop putting midi connections in new hardware? Will we get to a point sometime after that, where midi is no longer supported by software either? Then all my midi controllers and some of my old hardware becomes fairly useless on the new systems. You're probably saying to yourself at this point that I'm being silly, after all midi's been around for a long time. Well Asio's been around for a while too. I'm all for improvements but at the same time I'm all for standards. When you try to set a new standard all the time, then there is no standard. Hard to choose, but I think I lean towards the standards side. After all, I'm pretty happy with Asio, not perfect, but it doesn't bother me much either.
I know it's not comparing apples to apples, but Asio is, in a small way, like midi. The bad part about getting better sometimes is that you leave all the other good stuff behind "they don't make 'em like they used to". A few good programs I've bought don't run on XP, just threw away an old external modem that didn't have driver's for xp too, and one soundcard I own is no longer going to have the driver's updated, so I'll have a perfectly functioning piece of hardware that'll be worthless to me. I agree that the old Yamaha studio monitors ns-10's, needed improvement, but yet it was nice to go in all different studio's and have everyone on the same page (well I imagine it was nice, I wouldn't actually know that though), and they can be good monitors to have, even to this day. Maybe soon there will be a better connector for microphones, then all the new pre-amps will be made for them. Toss out that old Neumann, non-compatable junk.
Again I'm a bit on the fence, but if I'm gonna fall I'm gonna fall on the side of the elderly where there is nice green grass, instead of the new neighbors, mostly concrete and rock side.
Oh and one more thing. What's up with all the new music and video formats. Vinyl, 8-track, tape, cd, sacd, and the other shit. I mean it's cool in a way, but yet it's still revolutionary to have low quality mp3's. Sometimes I think all this audiophile elitism gets ridiculous.
And DVD's... Trent Reznor, did his DVD and was upset 'cuz he was already pushing the boundries of this brand new media format. So obviously that will be updated shortly. Throw out your old dvd player, 'cuz they won't play the new format.
Well I personally like some standards. Midi for example. Sure the new MLan by Yamaha sounds neat, and is definetly more sophisticated, and in a way I wish it would become the new standard, but still. We gonna stop putting midi connections in new hardware? Will we get to a point sometime after that, where midi is no longer supported by software either? Then all my midi controllers and some of my old hardware becomes fairly useless on the new systems. You're probably saying to yourself at this point that I'm being silly, after all midi's been around for a long time. Well Asio's been around for a while too. I'm all for improvements but at the same time I'm all for standards. When you try to set a new standard all the time, then there is no standard. Hard to choose, but I think I lean towards the standards side. After all, I'm pretty happy with Asio, not perfect, but it doesn't bother me much either.
I know it's not comparing apples to apples, but Asio is, in a small way, like midi. The bad part about getting better sometimes is that you leave all the other good stuff behind "they don't make 'em like they used to". A few good programs I've bought don't run on XP, just threw away an old external modem that didn't have driver's for xp too, and one soundcard I own is no longer going to have the driver's updated, so I'll have a perfectly functioning piece of hardware that'll be worthless to me. I agree that the old Yamaha studio monitors ns-10's, needed improvement, but yet it was nice to go in all different studio's and have everyone on the same page (well I imagine it was nice, I wouldn't actually know that though), and they can be good monitors to have, even to this day. Maybe soon there will be a better connector for microphones, then all the new pre-amps will be made for them. Toss out that old Neumann, non-compatable junk.
Again I'm a bit on the fence, but if I'm gonna fall I'm gonna fall on the side of the elderly where there is nice green grass, instead of the new neighbors, mostly concrete and rock side.
Oh and one more thing. What's up with all the new music and video formats. Vinyl, 8-track, tape, cd, sacd, and the other shit. I mean it's cool in a way, but yet it's still revolutionary to have low quality mp3's. Sometimes I think all this audiophile elitism gets ridiculous.
And DVD's... Trent Reznor, did his DVD and was upset 'cuz he was already pushing the boundries of this brand new media format. So obviously that will be updated shortly. Throw out your old dvd player, 'cuz they won't play the new format.
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- KVRAF
- 2549 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Hi toine6,
I also like the idea of keeping MIDI interfaces and MIDI software around, but I want it to exist alongside mLan and all the other innovations that have come about recently. I certainly don't want the older technology used so exclusively that it becomes a barrier to true technical innovation.
As for ASIO, DirectSound, MME, and WDM, none of those are completely satisfactory solutions in my personal opinion, although ASIO is my favorite technology of that group. If someone invents something that truly works better, I'm totally in support of it, even if it means that not all the older hardware and software will be able to take advantage of it. I currently have some software that requires DirectSound, some software that only works with basic MME, and some that only works with ASIO. I can run all of this software on the same machine. Adding another branch of driver speciality isn't a big deal to me, especially if it offers substantial improvements in features, quality, or ease of use.
later,
McLilith
I also like the idea of keeping MIDI interfaces and MIDI software around, but I want it to exist alongside mLan and all the other innovations that have come about recently. I certainly don't want the older technology used so exclusively that it becomes a barrier to true technical innovation.
As for ASIO, DirectSound, MME, and WDM, none of those are completely satisfactory solutions in my personal opinion, although ASIO is my favorite technology of that group. If someone invents something that truly works better, I'm totally in support of it, even if it means that not all the older hardware and software will be able to take advantage of it. I currently have some software that requires DirectSound, some software that only works with basic MME, and some that only works with ASIO. I can run all of this software on the same machine. Adding another branch of driver speciality isn't a big deal to me, especially if it offers substantial improvements in features, quality, or ease of use.
later,
McLilith
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
The difference between changing ASIO for something 'better' and switching MLan for MIDI is quite clear:
To incorporate a new driver standard, the software developers (for the sequencers and for the soundcards) need to update their software, which depending on the talent of your programmers, could be a very minimal undertaking, and which expense would be recouped by more sales. You wouldn't need a new soundcard, or to change any of your software (other than an update). In effect, the change would be "transparent" and would just add another option to your drop-down menus for choice of device.
Greg
To incorporate a new driver standard, the software developers (for the sequencers and for the soundcards) need to update their software, which depending on the talent of your programmers, could be a very minimal undertaking, and which expense would be recouped by more sales. You wouldn't need a new soundcard, or to change any of your software (other than an update). In effect, the change would be "transparent" and would just add another option to your drop-down menus for choice of device.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 37549 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Maybe GSIF 2 could be adapted into a general audio driver. At the moment its just for Gigasampler but its increadibly low latency and stability might make it a good alternative to ASIO and WDM.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I don't know the GSIF specs, but that's a good bit of a brainwave! The standard is already in place and distributed... why not?
Greg
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 7317 posts since 7 Mar, 2003