which hosts support step record/step edit/step entry/etc ..?

[moonlite]

does sq4^2 really incorporate a "step recording" function? and not a "step sequencer" like fl and orion etc etc? these two methods don't have much in common, and this is extremely important to me, since I've wasted too much time allready learning how to use software that ends up totally useless to me.

Is the UI really that confusing?

Anyway : SQ4² is all about step recording, whether you use a mouse, or push the record button and play your midi keyboard...The special thing about it, are the variable loopEnd points...

There's a demo available, (Installer + Remover) so no harm done by trying it.
:wink:

well, actually I've only had a look at the screenshot so far, and I think I misunderstood it a bit.

but, is SQ4² /really/ capable of "step recording", as described earlier. or do you mean "step sequencing" or what ever the sequencing style of tb303:s na tr909:s have?

this is really important to me, and I find the difference huge. .. just trying to make sure we're talking about the same thing =)


EDIT:
if it does, I have to try it out, too.

I just have to draw some lines to what to try and what not to try because at the same time as I'm experimenting with the hosts, I'm also learning and looking for synths with alternative synthesis methods, such as virsyn tera 2 and fm7 etc etc .. AND I'm trying to learn how to use kontakt and modulate the sample loop-points in it etc etc etc.

and to top it all off I have adhd and this reading disorder (not sure what it is called in english)

... AND I haven't been to work in a week because I'm tryling to learn all of this ;))

and so on..

and it's 13:20 here now and I really shoud get going to work if I want to go today either ;)

[moonlite]

f**k off! Everything I do is quantised to 1/16th, so what?

Yes, so what... that's why it does sound robotic. IMO your music is a prime example for robotic sounding stuff.
No, this isn't meant to be of any slagging nature, you may like robotic sounding music.
Personally I don't, at least not exactly.

Isn't that what muso's aim for anyway?

No freaking way!
All the "musos" I work with are trying to get their timing straight to gather some timing "freedom" - so if anybody would tell you to play this and that more relaxed you'd actually have a clue about what is meant.
Also, if you listen to any sort of "classic" rock and pop music, or any sort of "black" music (I know, that's not your COT), you will notice that one of the important things in this music is timing - DIFFERENT timing from straight quantized 16th notes that is.

The cool thing about step-recording is that you can concentrate on other things. I used to like using it with my M1/O1/W/Trinity so that I could get really good velocity data in.

Why wouldn't you be able to get "really good" velocity data in without step editing?

If I'd had to concentrate on getting the timing right the velocity would have definitely come out far more robotic-like so your assertion is flawed.

Pardon, but what a nonsense is this?
For any good player velocity (aka dynamics) and timing work hand-in-hand.
Maybe you should just practice on your playing skills...

However, to moonlite: What exactly is it that you don't like with Logic's step edit?

And, while I'm not using step edit at all, I allways found Cubase's interpretation of that rather welldone (one of the few things they did well...).

I find it a bit clumsy editing notes in the pianoroll with just the keyboards (comp&midi) compared to what i'm used to in trackers. and I am certain of that there is a host out there that suits me just perfectly. now I am in the process of trying to find out which one it is =)

could be very well that cubase does this better, and it is my intention to try it out.

[Armadillo]

moonlite:
granted, I haven't tried all the sequencers out there, but anything with a pianoroll won't get you that "spreadsheet" like overview you have in a tracker.

Yes, eg. Cubase can do stepsequencing where you press C1 and the cursor moves to the next 16th notes, but it still takes up all the space of a pianoroll. So, if your next note is C3 it won't even show on the same screen unless you zoom really far out.
I don't know ERA/EST, they might get you closer to what you want, but what I would do, and am trying to do at the moment is incorporating a tracker into Cubase. There's one out called ReViSiT. It's still a beta version and I couldn't get it to work, but I can wait a month or 2 untill the final version arrives.
What I would lurve is for Renoise to support Rewire or work as a VSTi. Only time will show.

[moonlite]

moonlite:
granted, I haven't tried all the sequencers out there, but anything with a pianoroll won't get you that "spreadsheet" like overview you have in a tracker.


Yes, eg. Cubase can do stepsequencing where you press C1 and the cursor moves to the next 16th notes, but it still takes up all the space of a pianoroll. So, if your next note is C3 it won't even show on the same screen unless you zoom really far out.
I don't know ERA/EST, they might get you closer to what you want, but what I would do, and am trying to do at the moment is incorporating a tracker into Cubase. There's one out called ReViSiT. It's still a beta version and I couldn't get it to work, but I can wait a month or 2 untill the final version arrives.
What I would lurve is for Renoise to support Rewire or work as a VSTi. Only time will show.

actually, aero studio does give you a tracker-style spreadsheet, and a pianoroll, afaik, but it's not quite ready. and without any documentation, I couldn't figure it out.. =/

the tracker /look/ isn't at all that important. so i'm completely happy with a tracker /feel/ in a pianoroll. by that I mean that keyboard-only editing in the pianoroll should be easy and fluent .. and fast! (which it isn't in logic)

I don't mind zooming out, either, since I have to do that in logic, too.

cubase, too, just seems a bit confusing and bloated, but I will give it a try .. and I hope the step editing works better there than in logic.

yes, someone already suggested revisit, and I was aware of the software before that, too .. but isn't this just for launching samples, like in the older trackers, or can one play vst:s with it, too? have you tried the newest version and maybe got it to work?

hm, if renoise supported rewire, it would still be as hard to make envelopes and there would certainly not be any drag'n'drop operation for editing/changing/moving around the song structure, would there?

this is essential to me, too ..

[meister eder]

currently I use logic, which supports it, but it's not very handy there.

I'd be interested to hear what exactly you find not so handy about Logic's step recording.
You do know about the sustain pedal and the according key-commands ét all, do you?

ok, i'll pretend you've read the trhread and understood the topic ..

I hope so!

yes, I know about "the sustain pedal", but I suppose you mean what it is assigned to by default? that I don't know, but what I do now, is all the key commands in moving about the matrix editor. to be more precise, I have tried and/or remapped, and understand all the key commands under "keyboard input". but still I find these an extremely clumsy way of moving and editing compared to what is avaliable in trackers.

What I meant was actually the function that the sustain pedal has in step recording mode, like moving one step forward and insert a pause, lengthening a input note when you still hold down the keys of the input notes, etc.
I found it quite convenient once I was used to it.
I must admit that I've never seriously worked with trackers, so I can't compare.

The whole point is that I just find logic a bit unconfortable, all in all, and am now asking around for substitutes that I should consider.

I see. I thought it was just the steprecording in Logic that you are uncomfortable with.

do you yourself have any good hints about step recording functions in logic? I'd like to hear them =)

Depends on what your basic knowledge about the steprecording in Logic is, but it seems quite know your way around (keycommands, MIDI commands, etc.).

[moonlite]

currently I use logic, which supports it, but it's not very handy there.

I'd be interested to hear what exactly you find not so handy about Logic's step recording.
You do know about the sustain pedal and the according key-commands ét all, do you?

ok, i'll pretend you've read the trhread and understood the topic ..

I hope so! :wink:

yes, I know about "the sustain pedal", but I suppose you mean what it is assigned to by default? that I don't know, but what I do now, is all the key commands in moving about the matrix editor. to be more precise, I have tried and/or remapped, and understand all the key commands under "keyboard input". but still I find these an extremely clumsy way of moving and editing compared to what is avaliable in trackers.

What I meant was actually the function that the sustain pedal has in step recording mode, like moving one step forward and insert a pause, lengthening a input note when you still hold down the keys of the input notes, etc.
I found it quite convenient once I was used to it.
I must admit that I've never seriously worked with trackers, so I can't compare.

oh! .. that seems interresting .. hm, how come I haven't heard of that yet? ;) .. where do you edit the settings for the sustain? is it the midi commands, in the key commands window?

Suppose that's in the manual, too, but I haven't found the time to even skim trough it =/ do you happen to remember the page?

The whole point is that I just find logic a bit unconfortable, all in all, and am now asking around for substitutes that I should consider.

I see. I thought it was just the steprecording in Logic that you are uncomfortable with.

well, actually, that, too.

let's say that too many times I find it easier and faster to grab the mouse when doing step recording in the pianoroll ... If it would be better built, I wouldn't need mouse at all in there.

f.ex. selecting notes and moving the cursor around seems unintuitive to me ..

do you know what I mean?

do you yourself have any good hints about step recording functions in logic? I'd like to hear them =)

Depends on what your basic knowledge about the steprecording in Logic is, but it seems quite know your way around (keycommands, MIDI commands, etc.).

[meister eder]

oh! .. that seems interresting .. hm, how come I haven't heard of that yet? .. where do you edit the settings for the sustain? is it the midi commands, in the key commands window?

Suppose that's in the manual, too, but I haven't found the time to even skim trough it =/ do you happen to remember the page?

Unfortunately not. I guess I haven't had a look at the manual since all that 'addendum' shit started with version 3.5 or something. But surely you'll find "step recording" or "step input" in the index.

The sustainpedal function is fairly simple:

When you are in step recording mode and
1. you hit the sustainpedal, the Song Position Line advances for your defined lenght of input notes, and hence creates a pause.
2. you still hold down the keys for the notes that you just entered, then pushing the sustainpedal will lengthen those notes by your defined lenght of input notes.


Another nice thing is when you doubleclick the MIDI In button you enable locked step input mode rather than step input mode. Locked step input mode means that you can select a note and then "edit" this note by playing on your keyboard. The note will be transposed accordingly and take on the velocity value of the note you played.

[moonlite]

oh! .. that seems interresting .. hm, how come I haven't heard of that yet? ;) .. where do you edit the settings for the sustain? is it the midi commands, in the key commands window?

Suppose that's in the manual, too, but I haven't found the time to even skim trough it =/ do you happen to remember the page?

Unfortunately not. I guess I haven't had a look at the manual since all that 'addendum' shit started with version 3.5 or something. But surely you'll find "step recording" or "step input" in the index.

The sustainpedal function is fairly simple:

When you are in step recording mode and
1. you hit the sustainpedal, the Song Position Line advances for your defined lenght of input notes, and hence creates a pause.
2. you still hold down the keys for the notes that you just entered, then pushing the sustainpedal will lengthen those notes by your defined lenght of input notes.


Another nice thing is when you doubleclick the MIDI In button you enable locked step input mode rather than step input mode. Locked step input mode means that you can select a note and then "edit" this note by playing on your keyboard. The note will be transposed accordingly and take on the velocity value of the note you played.

oh, cool, cool .. I think I really have to rtfm .. and then maybe, just maybe, logic, too, shows its humane side ;)

on the other hand, then I'll have to spend at least something like 1000 euros on a mac, which I seriously can't afford right now :P

at least the freeze option is something i'm missing .. of course I could use the plugin, but .... it's not quite the same, is it?

anything else pseudoessential in the new logic(s)?

and, in contrast, but following the topic: have you had any good experiences with any other software in terms of step recording?

I'm still reading the manual of energyxt. so I haven't litterally /tried/ it yet .. any experience with that and step recor f.ex?

EDIT: p.s. I think I'm gonna buy me a sustain pedal today ;) .. any use of a "switch" pedal or similar?

[meister eder]

on the other hand, then I'll have to spend at least something like 1000 euros on a mac, which I seriously can't afford right now

[...]

anything else pseudoessential in the new logic(s)?

If it is about the Step Recording functions, that's been in Logic since ages, so you wouldn't have to upgrade for that.

at least the freeze option is something i'm missing .. of course I could use the plugin, but .... it's not quite the same, is it?

I must admit, I love the freeze function.

and, in contrast, but following the topic: have you had any good experiences with any other software in terms of step recording?

Not really. I like the drawing mode in Ableton Live, especially for drum input - but that's not step recording, it's more like 909 programming.

And I love the input tools of the Xx sequencer - but that again is a Mac only program.

I think I'm gonna buy me a sustain pedal today .. any use of a "switch" pedal or similar?

You can use a cheap switch pedal as well, should be no problem. Just be sure it's not working the "toggle" way - unless you prefer that.

[moonlite]

on the other hand, then I'll have to spend at least something like 1000 euros on a mac, which I seriously can't afford right now :P

[...]

anything else pseudoessential in the new logic(s)?

If it is about the Step Recording functions, that's been in Logic since ages, so you wouldn't have to upgrade for that.

no no, i was talking about the freeze function .. and eventually I have to buy a mac anyway if I don't want to get stuck in logic 5.5.1 for ever :/

at least the freeze option is something i'm missing .. of course I could use the plugin, but .... it's not quite the same, is it?

I must admit, I love the freeze function.

and, in contrast, but following the topic: have you had any good experiences with any other software in terms of step recording?

Not really. I like the drawing mode in Ableton Live, especially for drum input - but that's not step recording, it's more like 909 programming.

And I love the input tools of the Xx sequencer - but that again is a Mac only program.

I think I'm gonna buy me a sustain pedal today ;) .. any use of a "switch" pedal or similar?

You can use a cheap switch pedal as well, should be no problem. Just be sure it's not working the "toggle" way - unless you prefer that.

I now have in front of me rolands dp-8 which I'll plug in my trinity ( my midi controller ;P ) as soon as I get home.

hope I didn't make a stupid choise because of misunderstanding somethin' ;P

[elfan]

I too grew up with trackers and then abandoned them because of Logic and VST/midi technology. Not until later I realized how brilliant trackers really are and how effciently you can compose music in a tracker. Just enter the notes. There's nothing more to it. No fiddling around with the mouse, no moving between computer and midi keyboard (unless you want to use a midi keyboard).

I've been looking _a lot_ for alternatives to Logic (because it's no longer developed for PC), but efficient step recording doesn't seem to be a priority in many places. Either you find high-level, piano roll type of note editors, or else you find low-level, step sequencer type of note editors.
The good thing with Logic and with mosts trackers are that they use a middle-level matrix (or "spreadsheet") type of editors which lets you use long patterns (not just 16 or 32 notes like most step sequencers) that let you compose at a higher level. This at the same time as Logic (unlike most trackers ) handles song arrangement very nicely at a high-level.

What I would like to have is a way of step recording notes, ideally without having to use the mouse and ideally without having to move my hands around too much (in the tracker you can audition every sample, play around with instruments, enter the notes and arrange a song without every leaving the computer keyboard).
... AND it should be possible to work at a middle level at least (no low-level step sequencers with only 16/32 step patterns).

I _would_ like to compose in Cubase. However, my problem with Cubase is that you can step record notes and everything, but if you want to delete like the latest three notes you have recorded and if these three notes happen to be at the same time instant in the piano roll, all notes at that time instant is deleted collectively. There is no way of, while in step record mode, quickly select particular notes and delete them (without selecting the notes using the mouse, which of course causes the step record cursor to move to the notes... irritating!). To delete the notes using the keyboard, you have to _leave_ step recording mode, thus re-entering normal note selection mode, and then find the notes you want to delete. Typically, the note selected by default, when leaving step recording mode, is the note that was selected when first entering the step record mode. This means that you could be forced to traverse all the notes you have recorded before arriving at the last three notes that you want to delete (this always happens to me).
These kinds of issues makes it very frustrating to work with Cubase. However, Cubase is still, overall, a host that I'd like to work in because of its maturity and nice feel in other areas.

Now, EnergyXT, on the other hand, has even got a way of inserting notes from the computer keyboard (together with the normal move/transpose/extend/shorten note functions) and a matrix type of editor which lets you address single notes instead of every note at a given time instant as in Cubase. This makes EnergyXT the most tracker-like program I've seen (it feels like a tracker turned 90 degrees counter-clockwise sometimes ).
However, EnergyXT still lacks some functionality such as note auditioning which is essential in a basic usability aspect. It should however just be a matter of time before EnergyXT gains the needed maturity to be an extremely efficient tool for composing music (it's already efficient when it comes to other areas).

So my bet is on the future EnergyXT ... Unless Steinberg gets it act together (which doesn't sound too likely, and defintely not for less than a couple of hundred dollars/euros in license fees :/)

//Tomas

[moonlite]

god damit, t2:s step entry sucks ass =(

what the ***** am I supposed to do now :P .. can some "3rd party" step sequencers easily export the data to the host?