KVR Audio

Gregorius · Post by **Gregorius** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:35 pm

Stuart T wrote:I asked for advice from a well known plugin developer regarding their limiter and they said that for some genres isp’s don’t matter and to turn it off in their limiter for those genres.

+1! clubby EDM genres for example oft get satured and hard-clipped enough to gain loudness. I saw tracks with 0.1db margin. There it doesn't matter that much if additional clipping, distortion or crackling occurs by isp.

Personally I don't put my trust in 1 meter to detect isps. Especially if it is mac only and from Apple itself. Who exactly has the prove that this auroundtrip plugin uses the "right" measurements? There is no exact standard. Theoretically it could just be another try from apple to set their ways as new standard. Then I'd rather use my usually tools I know from my productions. But I'd put my trust blind in fabfilter since they're known for high quality products and their effort. If they say they've tested their algorithms to fullfill the requirements with itu test files I take that serious.

Stuart T · Post by **Stuart T** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:49 pm

I trust FabFilter too and use their plugins. ISP’s matter but not for all genres, that’s all.

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:07 pm

I'm just trying to do my part to end the loudness wars. If you feel that 200 ISPs per second is acceptable then, fine, we are on completely different pages. But for anyone who is interested in quality audio take heed of your loudness and ISPs and put some effort into managing them.

Screen Shot 2017-12-08 at 6.03.19 PM.jpg

Stuart T · Post by **Stuart T** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:27 pm

plexuss wrote:I'm just trying to do my part to end the loudness wars. If you feel that 200 ISPs per second is acceptable then, fine, we are on completely different pages. But for anyone who is interested in quality audio take heed of your loudness and ISPs and put some effort into managing them.

Screen Shot 2017-12-08 at 6.03.19 PM.jpg

Then yes we are on different pages. Can anyone hear those 200 per second isp's that I was advised not to be concerned with by someone I have a lot of trust in. Posting my track like that is a little childish. To each their own...

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:33 am

Stuart T wrote:They told me that for the genre of music I asked about isp’s are nothing to be concerned about.

Not just for the genre of music.. in truth, unless you go way off the scale, ISP's don't matter at all. Just check out some of the most classic albums, some of which are considered revolutionary even, released since the loudness wars began.. nobody ever worried about ISP's. It's just become something of a talking point for uninformed consumers and made out to be a much bigger problem than it truly is.

You can easily create a double blind test of the "harm" of ISP and see if you can spot it. I guarantee you that out of 100 000 people, perhaps 1 person will pick out the file that has ISP's.. unless they are severe and actually cause distortion that can be heard.

So yeah, every time somebody worries about ISP's I just have to chuckle a bit and roll my eyes.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:36 am

plexuss wrote:I'm just trying to do my part to end the loudness wars. If you feel that 200 ISPs per second is acceptable then, fine, we are on completely different pages. But for anyone who is interested in quality audio take heed of your loudness and ISPs and put some effort into managing them.

.. like this guy. I just

and

for a bit.

200 ISP / second is quite a lot.. just set the output level to -0.2 or -0.3 if it worries you so much (hint: it shouldn't. You are making a massive problem of something that isn't an issue).

Once you get to a point where even basic clipping produces hundreds of ISP's all the time it means you've already pushed the actual clipping/limiting way too far. That process in itself is what causes the massive distortion.. ISP or no ISP, doesn't matter.

You can push a limiter or clipper that perfectly avoids ISPs easily into nasty audible distortion. Yet you make it sound like the ISP's are the main enemy.. they are not. Not even close.

If you want to do your part in ending the loudness war, then I suggest by starting being properly informed of REAL problems and not trying to make up non-issues. You wont be avoiding distortion by avoiding ISP's.

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:44 am

bmanic wrote:[snip...]
If you want to do your part in ending the loudness war, then I suggest by starting being properly informed of REAL problems and not trying to make up non-issues. You wont be avoiding distortion by avoiding ISP's.

An inter-sample peak is a clipped waveform. Clipping causes audible wide-band distortion. These are just basic audio engineering concepts. If you believe that clipping doesn't cause distortion, well, there isn't much more I can say about it.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:48 am

Jesus...

YOU DO REALIZE that you can have a PERFECTLY CLIPPED square wave or a completely distorted/rectified audio file that has ZERO inter-sample peaks? Do you even know what that damn definition means? I'm starting to doubt that you have a single clue what ISP actually means. This would explain so much.

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:55 am

bmanic wrote:Jesus...

YOU DO REALIZE that you can have a PERFECTLY CLIPPED square wave or a completely distorted/rectified audio file that has ZERO inter-sample peaks? Do you even know what that damn definition means? I'm starting to doubt that you have a single clue what ISP actually means. This would explain so much.

An audio file comprised of square waves and/or distortion but that itself does not clip is completely different than an audio file that has no purposely intended distortion but suffers from ISPs, which will then cause wide-band audible distortion especially when converted to a lossy format.

Look. Enough. There is enough information on the web about this subject for anyone that wants to learn about it. We are not going to get anywhere here so lets just drop it. But for those that want to learn about this and make their own decisions, research it yourself and come to your own conclustions.

Have fun with your clipped distorted audio.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:07 am

You are completely missing the point.. are you doing that on purpose?

I'll try to be extremely clear once more: The main negative of the loudness wars is NOT inter-sample peaks but rather ordinary distortion caused by way too much limiting/clipping. Like I said earlier, you can have a completely destroyed master with ZERO inter-sample peaks.

You are making it sound like inter-sample peaks are the main reason for bad sound. They are not!. Inter-sample peaks is something that 99.9999% wouldn't even worry about, nor know about, unless it wasn't marketed as a "bad thing" at some point. I can't exactly remember who brought it all to the front but nobody worried about them before it was marketed as such. TC Electronics was probably the guys that brought it to the fore front.. to sell their metering and the system 6000.

Anyhow, I feel like talking to a wall. You can lead a horse to water and all that BS. Sigh.

dreamvoid · Post by **dreamvoid** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:13 am

plexuss wrote:
An inter-sample peak is a clipped waveform. Clipping causes audible wide-band distortion. These are just basic audio engineering concepts. If you believe that clipping doesn't cause distortion, well, there isn't much more I can say about it.

no, it is a waveform reconstruction outside the possible range of a given bit depth of D/As - and differently audible (if at all) on different D/As

do_androids_dream · Post by **do_androids_dream** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:15 am

plexuss wrote: "We" being myself and other audio people who have deeper insight into this aspect of audio. Specifically, Bob Katz, Ian Shepard, et al. But if you don't care and don't feel it's important, good on 'ya.

Do you have extra big doorways in your house?

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:39 am

do_androids_dream wrote:
plexuss wrote: "We" being myself and other audio people who have deeper insight into this aspect of audio. Specifically, Bob Katz, Ian Shepard, et al. But if you don't care and don't feel it's important, good on 'ya.
Do you have extra big doorways in your house?

Hey well, I learned a lot from them. So what they know and shared I now know. I don't know everything they know and who knows I might know some stuff they don't know. But at least we all share information and experiences and come together towards making good sounding music.

Can't say the same for most of you wankers.

Get back to your distorted compressed -7 LUFS 4 PLR EDM.

Guenon · Post by **Guenon** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:58 am

plexuss wrote:But at least we all share information and experiences and come together towards making good sounding music.

Can't say the same for most of you wankers.

Bmanic is sharing information there, and good information at that, putting things in perspective. I agree people should see what this is all about, if in doubt, and draw their own conclusions. It doesn't mean they'll agree with you

, in practice having some ISPs is often a non-issue that people don't genuinely perceive in a blind test unless the audio is truly botched, and chances are there are other issues than just some ISPs here and there at that point.

Vortifex · Post by **Vortifex** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:27 am

Pro-L 2 by FabFilter