No demo, refund and even NFR of some orchestral libraries - is that legal?

[pixie.army]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

Doesn't have to be 80GB. Albion One is only 50GB actually. Trimmed down version (1 mic position, limited articulations) would work just fine getting it down to a more reasonable 15GB or so. The gaming industry has absolutely no problem with 10 - 20GB demos. The demo for Bethesda's 'The Evil Within' released last month was 30GB. The Cubase demo is like 10 or 12GB. Not a problem it seems.

Why do I always feel like I'm stuck in the 90s on audio forums. Like the world is still on dial up modems, and technology hasn't advanced in 2 decades. Would probably explain all the talk about 70s rock and "tape warmth" around here.

Agree with Poshook - he's been entirely polite in this thread, but the Vietnam vets are super cranky it seems.

[dandezebra]

Can someone please answer my question? I have asked twice and have attempted to be reasonably polite during this discussion. My queries have thus far been ignored, however.

Can someone point me to an 80gb sound library that can be fully demoed?

I would love to know if there is one.

Doesn't have to be 80GB. Albion One is only 50GB actually. Trimmed down version (1 mic position, limited articulations) would work just fine getting it down to a more reasonable 15GB or so. The gaming industry has absolutely no problem with 10 - 20GB demos. The demo for Bethesda's 'The Evil Within' released last month was 30GB. The Cubase demo is like 10 or 12GB. Not a problem it seems.

Why do I always feel like I'm stuck in the 90s on audio forums. Like the world is still on dial up modems, and technology hasn't advanced in 2 decades. Would probably explain all the talk about 70s rock and "tape warmth" around here.

Agree with Poshook - he's been entirely polite in this thread, but the Vietnam vets are super cranky it seems.

I am not talking about the size of the demo being a problem. Have you read the rest of the thread? Care to answer any of the previous questions I have asked? Comparing a 80gb (50 compressed) library to a game demo? Hmmmmmmm, I wonder which would be easier to upload a working version so every pirate could access it...

Also, if you downloaded a lesser demo of Albion One, this thread would be replaced with (not necessarily by the OP who indeed has been mostly polite) :

- I didn't know the alternative mic positions sounded like that, I want a refund

- I didn't know it didn't actually include ______ articulations, I want a refund

- etc. I want a refund.

Replace ALL of these complaints by watching videos, reading the articulation list, and looking at the manual. Really, we are still doing this?

[dandezebra]

Also, I am asking this out of curiosity's sake.

If I download a 20 gb steam demo and then purchase and do not like the ending of the game (not included in the demo), will Steam or Bethsoft give me a refund?

[EvilDragon]

Dealing with 3rd party developer subscriptions will require an investment, and is something I'm sure NI is already dealing with - as it's guaranteed other developers using Kontakt platform are already pushing them on this heavily.

It is not guaranteed at all, and I cannot confirm your assumption at all, being a 3rd party developer for Kontakt, and discussing with other 3rd party developers as well. We're not pushing NI at all to go subscription, on the contrary.

and the side effect of being amazing at fighting piracy.

Wroooooong. Adobe? Cracked. MS? Cracked. Waves? Cracked. Slate? Cracked. Softube? Also cracked. The list goes on. Don't kid yourself.

I will state this again. Majority of sample library developers won't be going subscription/SaaS way for years to come. If ever. And this is coming from me being a part of that industry, actually.

[murnau]

Agree with Poshook - he's been entirely polite in this thread, but the Vietnam vets are super cranky it seems.

The fact is that his main complaint is funnily enough the main selling point of Albion. Sorry, but imo someone who is to lazy to check at least one review (in every f*ckin review this is mentioned of course) deserves exactly this.

[pixie.army]

Dealing with 3rd party developer subscriptions will require an investment, and is something I'm sure NI is already dealing with - as it's guaranteed other developers using Kontakt platform are already pushing them on this heavily.

It is not guaranteed at all, and I cannot confirm your assumption at all, being a 3rd party developer for Kontakt, and discussing with other 3rd party developers as well. We're not pushing NI at all to go subscription, on the contrary.

and the side effect of being amazing at fighting piracy.

Wroooooong. Adobe? Cracked. MS? Cracked. Waves? Cracked. Slate? Cracked. Softube? Also cracked. The list goes on. Don't kid yourself.

I will state this again. Majority of sample library developers won't be going subscription/SaaS way for years to come. If ever. And this is coming from me being a part of that industry, actually.

Dude - you're a tiny fish in the sea. What matters is large companies staring at projections. Those large companies force infrastructure changes that shift the direction of the entire industry. You have no control over this at all, and will go where the market wants you to go. Or, go out of business.

And thinking the model will stay as is...is insane, especially as a developer. Have you not paid attention to where OS development is going - which will affect every product running on that OS? Are you living in a cave? Too much time on forums perhaps? The future is all products from a company available at all times, one fee, one installer interface, everyone on the same versions, syncronized releases, no compartmentalization. Simple, super efficient and much cheaper to manage. Smaller companies will either have to license into larger catalogues / platforms, consolidate, or have a terrible go of it trying to compete with the big guys who can guarantee stability / consistency, and offer huge catalogues of (ever expanding) content with very attractive pricing.

Scary right?? That's the future.

As for piracy - it's not that the software isn't cracked, it's that more consumers are opting for a small monthly subscription fees rather than large upfront purchases. And this is rapidly expanding the consumer base of many companies and eating quite effectively into piracy. Music industry figured it out, movie industry figured it out. Tv industry. Microsoft, Intuit, Adobe...all these guys figure it out. This has now been proven over and over again in every single area of software / digital content distribution. That's yet another reason why you see subscriptions models having exponential growth rate. Adobe's success pretty much put a nail in the coffin for any pessimism on the subject with regard to creative app distribution:

https://blog.chartmogul.com/adobe-saas-pivot-strategy/

Anyway - I seriously suggest paying attention to the corporate side of what's going on. Ignore small developers, or people that aren't sitting in on business meetings. All a corporation has to see is the profit margins of SaaS models to basically flip a switch. Like I said, either NI has seen those projections already, or they will see them very soon.

[Burillo]

Also, I am asking this out of curiosity's sake.

If I download a 20 gb steam demo and then purchase and do not like the ending of the game (not included in the demo), will Steam or Bethsoft give me a refund?

actually, if you didn't spend two hours on this game, probably yes. however, this analogy is invalid, and you're being intentionally disingenuous.

[dandezebra]

Also, I am asking this out of curiosity's sake.

If I download a 20 gb steam demo and then purchase and do not like the ending of the game (not included in the demo), will Steam or Bethsoft give me a refund?

actually, if you didn't spend two hours on this game, probably yes. however, this analogy is invalid, and you're being intentionally disingenuous.

Me? Why not the person who actually compared the Albion One library to a Bethsoft game? Seriously, do people even read the previous posts? Obviously not, as no one will answer any of my actual questions.

Also, my Steam question was meant to be a combination of serious as well as sarcastic as I cannot fathom a Kontakt library being compared to a game...

[EvilDragon]

Like I said, either NI has seen those projections already, or they will see them very soon.

Luckily NI doesn't really NEED to go SaaS because they've got really successful hardware product ranges which cannot really be subscription based, and actually secures them a great chunk of their turnaround

So yeah, I'm pretty sure they saw those projections, and threw them in the bin and continued to focus on their hardware business.


See ya in 5 years where things will still be pretty much the same in the sample library realm! It's pretty much a cottage industry, it doesn't need to follow the steps of huge corporations like MS or Adobe. There's only ONE sample library developer that's gone SaaS (EW), others with equally huge product ranges aren't even thinking of doing it (i.e. Vienna, Spitfire, etc.). I don't see how OS being SaaS has any bearing on the software that it's running on that OS (especially with W10 being heavily backwards compatible). It doesn't and will not force every software developer to make their product(s) as a service, it's a false dichotomy.

[yellowmix]

FFS Adobe is an outlier. They ate up all the competition and have an effective monopoly at the industry level. No other software company is anywhere close to having this situation.

SaaS will increase in general but certain applications demand local computing power. People will reject remote audio processing until it's technically viable. And getting remote DSP latency to beat local DSP latency requires breaking the speed of light AND having enough computing infrastructure to outpace what customers can acquire.

The analogies that keep coming up are ridiculous. Of course a game is large and willingly provided, because it's a money acquisition platform. You play a game for free, developers don't care because the number of users is what makes the game good, and the 0.15% of users that actually fund it are happy. You provide one mic position with one articulation and it's out there forever as a tool to be used and reused, and it provides no more information about the product that you cannot glean from every other available resource. The business models are completely different.

Unless you can make your argument specific to the situation and concerns about sample libraries and their developers, it's pointless. Provide some solutions for piracy. I mean, is OP willing to provide ID and sign contracts to return a sample library? Are they willing to pay for the credit check, lawyer, and processing fees?

Developers did the CBA and it works out for them. OP clearly didn't, and can't propose actual working solutions. It's basically a public tantrum.

[murnau]

Like I said, either NI has seen those projections already, or they will see them very soon.

Luckily NI doesn't really NEED to go SaaS because they've got really successful hardware product ranges which cannot really be subscription based, and actually secures them a great chunk of their turnaround

So yeah, I'm pretty sure they saw those projections, and threw them in the bin and continued to focus on their hardware business.


See ya in 5 years where things will still be pretty much the same in the sample library realm! It's pretty much a cottage industry, it doesn't need to follow the steps of huge corporations like MS or Adobe. There's only ONE sample library developer that's gone SaaS (EW), others with equally huge product ranges aren't even thinking of doing it (i.e. Vienna, Spitfire, etc.). I don't see how OS being SaaS has any bearing on the software that it's running on that OS (especially with W10 being heavily backwards compatible). It doesn't and will not force every software developer to make their product(s) as a service, it's a false dichotomy.

I guess Mr. Outta Cave simply forgot (rather never grasp) that NI produce hardware very successfully since years hence is poor comparison and his "one installer" gibberish that makes absolutely no sense in this connection.

[shidostrife]

Hmm, now I'm wondering. If you have full Kontakt, can you open Kontakt player libraries without a license?

For example, once you bought NI Studio Drummer, can you save the instruments and samples somewhere else, sell the product, then open the saved instrument? I've never tried this as I immediately deleted any kontakt libraries that I sold.

If you can, then it is quite understandable for Spitfire to refuse return.

[EvilDragon]

No, you cannot do that with a legitimate full version of Kontakt.

[poshook]

Hmm, now I'm wondering. If you have full Kontakt, can you open Kontakt player libraries without a license?

For example, once you bought NI Studio Drummer, can you save the instruments and samples somewhere else, sell the product, then open the saved instrument? I've never tried this as I immediately deleted any kontakt libraries that I sold.

If you can, then it is quite understandable for Spitfire to refuse return.

And this is non-sense to me. Their library is protected by the license. However you have no problem to see understandable that developer refuses return but many of you have a problem to see non-understandable that some1 could ask for return because of no try before buy.

Let think about the pure facts:
1. No demo before buy at all = FACT and seller protection based on buyer's risk
2. There are youtube videos, manual and reviews but they are objectively not able to replace personal experience when we talk about sample library = FACT and buyer protection (however a weak one as there is still a lot of risk on arms of the buyer)
3. Library is protected (it does not work without license) = FACT and seller protection (however a weak one as Kontakt sampler could be cracked)
4. No return = FACT and seller protection
5. No resale = FACT and seller protection - however definitely not protection against the steal, maybe protection against narrowing the potential customers base - based on prohibiting the possibility to resale legally owned buyer's license.

Let think about the assumptions:
1. I am a burglar who prefer giving personal details and money to seller before searching and downloading cracked version from web = ASSUMPTION (a little stupid one)

Still difficult to see that this relationship and current rules are sick?

Just for your information. I have full version of NI Komplete (Kontakt is included), 2TB drives full of legal libraries and 450+ legal plugins and virtual instruments.

[shidostrife]

No, you cannot do that with a legitimate full version of Kontakt.

I see where you're going

Hmm, now I'm wondering. If you have full Kontakt, can you open Kontakt player libraries without a license?

For example, once you bought NI Studio Drummer, can you save the instruments and samples somewhere else, sell the product, then open the saved instrument? I've never tried this as I immediately deleted any kontakt libraries that I sold.

If you can, then it is quite understandable for Spitfire to refuse return.

And this is non-sense to me. Their library is protected by the license. However you have no problem to see understandable that developer refuses return but many of you have a problem to see non-understandable that some1 could ask for return because of no try before buy.

Let think about the pure facts:
1. No demo before buy at all = FACT and seller protection based on buyer's risk
2. There are youtube videos, manual and reviews but they are objectively not able to replace personal experience when we talk about sample library = FACT and buyer protection (however a weak one as there is still a lot of risk on arms of the buyer)
3. Library is protected (it does not work without license) = FACT and seller protection (however a weak one as Kontakt sampler could be cracked)
4. No return = FACT and seller protection
5. No resale = FACT and seller protection - however definitely not protection against the steal - based on prohibiting the possibility to resale legally owned buyer's license.

Let think about the assumptions:
1. I am a burglar who prefer giving personal details and money to seller before searching and downloading cracked version from web = ASSUMPTION (a little stupid one)

Still difficult to see that this relationship and current rules are sick?

Just for your information. I have full version of NI Komplete (Kontakt is included), 2TB drives full of legal libraries and 450+ legal plugins and virtual instruments.

ED mentioned that the library is indeed protected by the license, assuming we're using legitimate kontakt, so I came back to my initial stance. They should be able to offer return/resell just like NI does to their own libraries.