A dream hardware controller for soft synths?

[noiseboyuk]

Over many years, the subject has come up of controllers for soft synths. Back in the day there have been some one-off curiosities for the MS20 or impOscar, but they were only built in small volumes. They looked great, but of course only controlled the one synth. Also they run into the problem of the hardware not keeping up with the software - you change a patch, but the hardware doesn't change with it.

Roland's PlugOut is good idea, but of course that has synth electronics in it, and so is far more than a controller. Also they can only control the small number of synths that Roland release that are compatible. Otherwise, today its just case of using automation. NI's NKS standard is pretty slick, but you can only control 8 things. For performance tweaks, handy. For programming, a non starter.

It's easy enough to see the problem of course - every soft synth is different. How can one universal design usefully represent such a wide variety of synths?

THE IDEA

Take a look at this picture, from a beloved broadcast Studer Vista desk.



Look how clear the controls are. Although it looks super-slick, it's actually a pretty low tech idea that - for whatever reason - nobody else that I know of has carried on. It's just touchscreens, with translucent strips and knobs laid over part of it. And that's it. In the UK, I can buy a retail 21 inch touchscreen for under 200 quid - knobs and plastic is pretty trivial. Why not base a universal synth controller on this basic idea?

The way I see it, pretty big would be good - perhaps as big as 21 inch, maybe a little less. A good part of the real estate would be touchscreen - say the lower central part - then the rest would be fixed arrays of knobs and switches. The UI underneath could reflect the UI of the soft synth itself, and of course you could have multiple pages on tags. You couldn't have a literal physical copy of an instrument as the knobs would all be in the wrong place, but you could retain much of the essence. The controller could be designed so that filters are likely to be found in one place, amp envelopes another and so on, but it would all be 100% flexible depending on the synth. Crucially, it would have a good number of physical controls that would - in theory - make programming as good as good hardware.

It would need a new standard to be able to share graphical info alongside all the CC controller - perhaps an ideal would be an extension of NI's NKS standard. (Indeed I think NI would be the best equipped to build such a thing).

WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED?

That's the big question. Is there enough of a market for this? Let's say good size units could be built for $400, and for the purposes of the discussion that it was able to control the main synths you use. Would you be interested?

(just for clarity - this is a purely speculative thread, I'm not interested in trying to design or still less build such a thing. Just trying to get an idea if there would be a real market for it... if there was it wouldn't hurt to drop likes of NI or Arturia a line.)

[beely]

Yes, I've been asking for (and posting about) a decent softsynth controller for more than a decade, and still all we have is generic fader boxes, or generic controls on a MIDI keyboard and "mixer" layout controllers, with some dedicated software things like Push etc.

To be honest, I'm *amazed* this gap in the market still exists. Make something that looks good, works well for most software, controls the core 80% of all soft synths with some extra flexibility for configuring other things, and as long a it's not too expensive, who *wouldn't* want it. Have a range - desktop module, and a keyboard version or two.

[recursive one]

For me it's heally hard to imagine something more suitable for general use and compatible with various softsynths than a generic keyboard controller with few assignable knobs/sliders. We have plenty of them and they are mostly not very different from each other aside from look and build quality.

Something like a keyboard equipped with a large touchscreen which would automatically display the GUI of the plugin which is currently in focus in the DAW may provide somehow different experience, however I guess it would still be easier to draw automations and to do precise tweaks with a mouse (there might be a special knob analogous to the Shift button for fine tweaks though).

Openlabs tried to implement something like this, but instead of making just controllers they tried to intergate the whole DAW machine into them which is IMO pointless. ANyway this is what it might look like

[chk071]

This one is looking quite nice: viewtopic.php?t=486392

And i always forget the name of the thing. Time to bookmark that topic, finally.

[noiseboyuk]

This one is looking quite nice: viewtopic.php?t=486392

And i always forget the name of the thing. Time to bookmark that topic, finally.

Oooh thanks, not seen that. Obviously its a very different concept to the one I have, but it does have the advantage of existing - almost.

For me, I wouldn't be interested in a design like that for two big reasons. 1 - As its just too restrictive, designed to work with relatively simple synths by the looks of things. I think that every synth has its idiosyncrasies, so no fixed hardware controller will be a good fit - you'd end up flipping back and forth, rather defeating the point. 2 - unless I missed a very clever trick and all their controls are motorized, you'll end up with the ugly position where the soft and hardware are out of sync. Recall a patch and every hardware control will be in the wrong position.

Hence the touchscreen/knob hybrid idea.

[chk071]

It's true, there's only few parameters present in the Sonic Academy controller. Still should be the parameters you use 95% of the time, and at least you can tweak those "live". What is also attractive is that they plan many templates, which are built in by default. So, no need to set up Spire, Sylenth1, ANA, or any of the other synth they plan to support. I think it will be a bit pricey though. At least, i can't imagine that they can sell it for lower than 200 €. But, who knows.

[beely]

For me it's heally hard to imagine something more suitable for general use and compatible with various softsynths than a generic keyboard controller with few assignable knobs/sliders.

No. If you are happy with a generic box of knobs, then great - we've had that for years.

However, some of us want something done "properly". If you've ever used a hardware synth with a dedicated control panel, you'll understand why this is so nice. When you get a (for example) Jupiter-8, it's not a bunch of unlabelled generic controls which you have to map, without labels, or the correct control type for each parameter.

Generic controllers are fine and have their place, but this thread is *not* about that - it's about a proper synth controller, with labelled controls and a nice layout, hopefully using some modern design paradigms, that will cover the core parameters or most synths (eg osc section, filter section, amp and filter envelopes etc etc) with some intelligent decisions as to how to make flexible use on these for synths with extra parameters in these sections.

There are ways to solve these problems, and build something that would satisfy many us cases (and if you the type of sound designer who absolutely must have every one for the 21,000 parameters on their complicated synth of choice accessible - then you are using the mouse on the GUI onscreen anyway, as you will never get that with hardware in any meaningful or useful way.)

The Sonic Academy one comes closest to the sort of thing I've been wanting, so far...

[recursive one]

However, some of us want something done "properly". If you've ever used a hardware synth with a dedicated control panel, you'll understand why this is so nice. When you get a (for example) Jupiter-8, it's not a bunch of unlabelled generic controls which you have to map, without labels, or the correct control type for each parameter.

Generic controllers are fine and have their place, but this thread is *not* about that - it's about a proper synth controller, with labelled controls and a nice layout, hopefully using some modern design paradigms, that will cover the core parameters or most synths (eg osc section, filter section, amp and filter envelopes etc etc) with some intelligent decisions as to how to make flexible use on these for synths with extra parameters in these sections

That's precisely THE problem. I'd love to have a controller that would automatically map its knobs to the plugin parameters in the most meaningful way when I switch, e.g. from Repro-1 to Razor and then to Absynth. But I hardly see this possible because there is no unified parameter layout across different plugins, even if we talk about typical osc/filter/envelopes design.

[noiseboyuk]

If you are happy with a generic box of knobs, then great - we've had that for years.

However, some of us want something done "properly". If you've ever used a hardware synth with a dedicated control panel, you'll understand why this is so nice. When you get a (for example) Jupiter-8, it's not a bunch of unlabelled generic controls which you have to map, without labels, or the correct control type for each parameter.

Generic controllers are fine and have their place, but this thread is *not* about that - it's about a proper synth controller, with labelled controls and a nice layout, hopefully using some modern design paradigms, that will cover the core parameters or most synths (eg osc section, filter section, amp and filter envelopes etc etc) with some intelligent decisions as to how to make flexible use on these for synths with extra parameters in these sections.

There are ways to solve these problems, and build something that would satisfy many us cases (and if you the type of sound designer who absolutely must have every one for the 21,000 parameters on their complicated synth of choice accessible - then you are using the mouse on the GUI onscreen anyway, as you will never get that with hardware in any meaningful or useful way.)

The Sonic Academy one comes closest to the sort of thing I've been wanting, so far...

I agree with all that except I'm curious to know why the Sonic Academy controller ticks your boxes more than the concept in the OP. For me, the Sonic Academy one would be a world of pain.

As for compatibility, NKS is the model to follow imo. Don't ask users to set it up, just have a spec that developers can integrate and really make full use of the interface and touchscreen.

[beely]

That's precisely THE problem. I'd love to have a controller that would automatically map its knobs to the plugin parameters in the most meaningful way when I switch, e.g. from Repro-1 to Razor and then to Absynth. But I hardly see this possible because there is no unified parameter layout across different plugins, even if we talk about typical osc/filter/envelopes design.

You'd likely have to have some configuration file type of deal, made by the dev to support the main plugins out there, with it being extensible by users to support other plugins where necessary.

[beely]

I agree with all that except I'm curious to know why the Sonic Academy controller ticks your boxes more than the concept in the OP. For me, the Sonic Academy one would be a world of pain.

I think my ideal would probably be somewhere closer to the middle of those two - dedicated knobs, as well as some touch screen functionality - I've been thinking about this for years, but haven't sat down and actually designed a product and solved the various problems, so don't know exactly what the ideal solution would be.

It really comes down to what you want - my preferred solution won't necessarily work for you if your requirements are different, obviously.

I *don't* want every synth parameter in hardware - it's not practical for many synths who have many hundreds or thousands of parameters, and you'd end up doing so much menu diving it would defeat the point of hardware - use the software for what it's good for in those circumstances.

I want a dedicated hardware solution that's better than what I already do - I basically set up some generic controllers so that I always have oscillator controls, filter controls, envelope controls etc in the same place. I map so the standard controls are there, with some flexibility for some extra controls when a plugin can meaningfully do something with them. This brings all my synths under fingertip control where I can do the vast majority of core sound parameters to my fingers.

(I have non-generic controllers as well which label plugin parameters under soft knobs, bu when layouts change, I have to go looking for the parameter I want, which is where it falls down for me).

But, the product would have a dedicated layout (eg, there would be a "Filter Cutoff" knob, labelled, in the filter section, rather than me remembering that I use Knob 19 for this) - dedicated Osc/Filter/Env controls etc., with some extra solutions to tackle more advanced features (here, we have options such as extra controls, screens, menus, touchscreen stuff etc) - anything to extend the flexibility we have with many synths.

It's difficult to write comprehensively about this without writing many thousands of words. I think it might be worth talking somewhat not so much as to what the product should look like, but what problems it needs to solve for your particular workflow.

Are you trying to bring *all* synth parameters to the hardware? What about sophisticated graphic interfaces? Do you want some knobs in a standard layout, or are you happy for the layout to change depending on the instrument?

As for compatibility, NKS is the model to follow imo. Don't ask users to set it up, just have a spec that developers can integrate and really make full use of the interface and touchscreen.

Yes, another option - there are many ways to solve these problems. I just wish someone *would*...

[rod_zero]

The Roland System 8 is a good start point, and it can control other softsynths that have midi learn, I use it with Diva all the time.

So what it would need:

1.- Tons of controls, as the S8 shows you need lots of controls, not only to control most of any synth but also to repurpose some to particular parameters. maybe go for 100.

2.- A layout that looks like a synth, I think this is one of the main reasons generic controllers fail: they don't look as synths, they don't have the typical synths layout: oscillators, filters, envelopes, LFO's, mixer.

3.- Visual feedback for parameter values, this can be done with led rings, or how NI implemented in the Kontrol series ( a screen behind the controls). Utterly important for really get what you are doing, especially when loading presets.

4.- Since the number of LFO's, envelopes and oscillators can vary, develop a system which can "surf" through LFO1, LFO2, etc. I know I said tons of controls are needed, I think a couple of sets of controls for envelopes and LFO's would be a good start point, but many soft synths have 4-6 LFO's, so an intuitive system for controlling more than two would be needed. Look picture at the bottom.


This concept was fairly good, I would like more controls, but the way to solve visual feedback and multiple sets of envelopes, lfo's is quite brilliant ( I would double the available parameters nevertheless).

[recursive one]

dup

[recursive one]

That's precisely THE problem. I'd love to have a controller that would automatically map its knobs to the plugin parameters in the most meaningful way when I switch, e.g. from Repro-1 to Razor and then to Absynth. But I hardly see this possible because there is no unified parameter layout across different plugins, even if we talk about typical osc/filter/envelopes design.

You'd likely have to have some configuration file type of deal, made by the dev to support the main plugins out there, with it being extensible by users to support other plugins where necessary.

Makes sense, but still, if you use more than 10 plugins with different layout (well, let's assume they all have a filter but one of them may have a filter drive control, another one may have a filter FM knob, yet another one may have two independent filters etc, you get the idea - the specific set of controls will always be different), you may have a hard time keeping in mind what exactly any given knob of your controller is supposed to do in each of your synths.

Generic controllers are good because they are, well ... generic. Yes, you have to set up them manually but they are compatible by default with virtually any synth and most DAWs and you may set them up in any way you like.

I'm all in favor of a more smart solution but currently I can't figure out what shoud it look like to become actually an improvement. For what I know, neither Automap nor NKS mapping did actually cut it.

[noiseboyuk]

Are you trying to bring *all* synth parameters to the hardware? What about sophisticated graphic interfaces? Do you want some knobs in a standard layout, or are you happy for the layout to change depending on the instrument?

I think yes, everything on the surface. To always have to flit between the two would be a huge drawback. It needn't be too difficult to achieve either, with a good size touchscreen area. You might commonly have multiple oscillators on different tabs that share the physical controls, or if it were a minimoog type synth you'd probably have the real estate to have multiple oscillators always available.

I agree having things in a familiar area will be good, but just a cursory look at different synths Osc sections (or any other really) show that many have really important controls which are unique to the synth, so I think there would have to be some flexibility there. Diva's switching of osc types for instance. Omnisphere between samples and waveforms. Unison / width on some synths but not others. I just think a fixed box will always be too limiting.

Stuff like modulation is very routine in programming, but a real challenge for a hardware controller. But with the touchscreen / knob model, you'd have some fantastic possibilities that improve on software. You could press a control on the touchscreen (either the big screen or the area above the knob) and it would flash, then press any other control and done. Or you could use the main touchscreen for virtual jacks or pins, if the synth had it.