KVR Audio

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:19 pm

Computer Music #253 reviewed Thorn

Congrats! Fully deserved <3

sqigls · Post by **sqigls** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:29 pm

"Modulation isn't visualised"... wow, I thought music was about using your EARS, but there you go.

"Very heavy on CPU usage"... my KVR OSC 105 submission (while admittedly not finished) had 24 x instances of Thorn, on a 2.7gHz i7 processor, i never once had a glitch, and the ASIO/CPU meter was sitting at about 25%. I have a feeling it's only these huge unison patches that are giving people this "CPU hog impression", but it's just not true. One Instance of Diva on my machine took 2 or 3 times the juice.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:52 pm

sqigls wrote:"Modulation isn't visualised"... wow, I thought music was about using your EARS, but there you go.

"Very heavy on CPU usage"... my KVR OSC 105 submission (while admittedly not finished) had 24 x instances of Thorn, on a 2.7gHz i7 processor, i never once had a glitch, and the ASIO/CPU meter was sitting at about 25%. I have a feeling it's only these huge unison patches that are giving people this "CPU hog impression", but it's just not true. One Instance of Diva on my machine took 2 or 3 times the juice.

25 tracks and not a blip.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... new-sounds

Sound Author · Post by **Sound Author** » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:31 am

On my new system, with a 7th gen Intel i5-7400, Thorn doesn't really demand that much CPU. On my older system with a 2.4 GHz Crapatron-5000, the hit was devastating.

It's not Thorn. It's your pet dinosaur.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:36 am

Guys, I was expecting posts like "Congratulations!" and "Well done!" instead of you dissecting the review...

After all it's a very positive review and a reason to celebrate

sqigls · Post by **sqigls** » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Congratulations Dmitry!
Well done!!!

tapiodmitriyevich · Post by **tapiodmitriyevich** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:37 pm

sqigls wrote:"Modulation isn't visualised"... wow, I thought music was about using your EARS, but there you go

Oh really? Visualisation of what is going on in modulation is helpful not only for "debugging" and should be in every synth, if possible. I guess sometimes devs would to it if their GUI framework supported it.

sqigls · Post by **sqigls** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:59 pm

it's 'handy', but far from a pre-requisite unless you're a new-school type who's never used hardware before.

If it causes a plugin to be unstable or use more resources, then leave it off I say, who knows, maybe in this case it would have added to the CPU or RAM burden?

it just kinda makes me laugh, because it's a bit of 'metaphor'(?) perhaps, for "producers" who are obviously not relying on their EARS, as the music they're releasing is abrasive and based on trends, or 'an image' rather than a feeling or a groove. Yeah the pictures are purdy, but it really goes to show if a modulation visualisation has become that important.

Stefken · Post by **Stefken** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:40 pm

sqigls wrote: "producers" who are obviously not relying on their EARS,.

It's a question of providing feedback and we humans are graphically oriented. Graphics also help greatly in memory tasks for example.
Using your ears is all fine with a simple sound but if you're using multiple envelopes and multiple lfo's, you're not going to detect all these movements by ear, don't kid yourself. You will see it easily though.

CrystalWizard · Post by **CrystalWizard** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:07 pm

Off topic but:

I'd say the last two posts are both valid.
IMO too many people are relying on vision to make, mix, and 'produce' these days.

Seeing modulation routing and depth is helpful on a busy patch though, especially when programming or patching. While playing i like to know the modulation pathways more so than the amounts (use my ears for the amounts.)

I like how NI Massive functions for viewing patches. Not ideal but pretty good.

I haven't loaded the demo ( i normally don't like to demo much but...) i'm looking forward to trying Thorn.

generaldiomedes · Post by **generaldiomedes** » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:48 pm

Congrats on 9/10 score, such a good synth and fills a pretty wide sonic niche as well with all the harmonic manipulation possible.

sqigls · Post by **sqigls** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:42 am

The ring around the potentiometer already SHOWS you the depth of the modulation. Which is in itself more than hardware does. I understand that some people want to sit there watching their LFOs pulsing for whatever reason, great. It's handy, ok. All I'm really saying is, it's hardly that important, and I dare say, i some cases, could add unnecessarily and possibly considerably to CPU/RAM tax and/or stability. and IF this is the potential reality, then it might be best to leave the feature out of the equation.

tapiodmitriyevich · Post by **tapiodmitriyevich** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:37 am

Hardware is not something I compare VSTs to. Computing power develops. Options are good. In my world, as much visualisation as possible is state of the art. Guess why e. g. Serum is as successful. A big part is UI.
Re pulsing LFOs: e. g. on slow LFO movements it can be helpful to see where it currently is. Or on application of multiple LFOs to one target.

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:02 am

Maybe we can all give a priority list of features to Dmitry.
I think anything which would be a deal breaker should be done first, and then we can think about convenience enhancements.

Dealbreaker priority list of mine, its pretty long and consists of 5 Points.
1. MPE compatibility,
2. MPE compatibility,
3. MPE compatibility,
4. MPE compatibility,
5. MPE compatibility

Convenience priority list:

1. Moving modulation display, but switchable for those who need the feeling it would keep some more cycles of the CPU, though its probably done by the GPU...
2. Preset morphing

As soon I can realy start diving in deeper, when the deal breaker list is fixed, I will probably find some more convenience reuquests...

P.S. MPE is not a dealbreaker for Dmitrys income on my side, I bought it already, for the fun I had with the OSC, he deserved it. But there is a general demand for more and more musicians with expressive controlers, who would only even follow threads like this, if the tool is MPE compatible...

Stefken · Post by **Stefken** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:41 am

sqigls wrote:The ring around the potentiometer already SHOWS you the depth of the modulation. Which is in itself more than hardware does.

That's actually not true because the bipolar character is not reflected on the ring. There are other small errors in the lfo implementation which had me confused for a while.
I could be a bug that the lfo was not working correctly, it could we an error in the modulation assignment, ... If I had a visualisation of the lfo movement, I would have seen instantly what the problem was.

And hardware is not per se the standard with what VST have to be compared. The UI of VST's can do so much more. Look at what Aparillo is doing in their UI (regardless of that's you're thing or not). That's innovation. You're starting to see that. Synths like Repro have blurred the line between analog and digital. So we know we have that covered now. Now, the field is open for VST's to go where analog and hardware could not go.
I've seen this happen for digital photography and it will happen for vst's as well.

If you want to stay in your old familiar world of hardware, that's up to you. But old standards are not the criterium on which to evaluate VST's. VST's will create standards on their own (they already are).

Thorn: Dmitry Sches' new synth!