Sound Design via Feedback Loops: What's your technique?

[Jace-BeOS]

... Unfortunately, all that stuff lacks immediate/analog control. It's all buttons and menu diving...

I think this is the kicker when it comes to using feedback creatively. The only time I've ever found working with feedback feasible was on the big rack of Behringer outboard gear at my old university because you *need* all those controls instantly accessible if you're to do anything remotely precise. The outboard EQ with a slider for each of its 32 bands was particularly handy as you could essentially play it like a synth tuned to 3-tone equal temperament by momentarily flicking the bands up and down.

As such, I'd suggest minimising your feedback rack to the things you have that instantaneous control over. You'd be amazed just how much you can do purely inside a simple DJ mixer - output patched back to input. Toshimaru Nakamura's albums are all made with his 'No Input Mixing Board' and the variety of sounds he can coax out of it (alongside a loop pedal) is endlessly surprising. It all has a certain sonic 'signature' for sure, but runs the gamut from the more noisy, 'extreme frequencies' end of things down to pretty, almost melodic ambient stuff.

Anyway, I'd suggest EQ as being a great starting point for any feedback explorations. Set up as many bands as you have knobs on your MIDI controller, space them out as desired, and start turning them up and down. I'm guessing you'll need to inject a touch of noise somewhere in the chain though, given that there's no such thing as a noise floor in the plug-in world. Don't forget that no feedback loop is ever complete without a limiter.

Here's the track I made on that big outboard rack of gear circa 2005. 50 Hz (and its harmonics) are ever present thanks to the UK's electricity grid. The vast majority of the performative stuff comes from playing with that EQ as far as I recall. The last half is almost entirely a single track of a feedback loop containing the EQ and a Quadraverb clone (plus the essential limiter, of course). There's even a glitchy menu-dive effect where the delay length is turned down. It was pieced together on digital multitrack from a few sessions worth of improvisations and mixed down live. Only the 'unspooling' noise at 0.59 had any additional editing (a simple varispeed from high to low).

Patchwork.mp3

Thanks for sharing that MP3. "Playing" an EQ is an interesting idea. i think it would be even more interesting to watch someone do this stuff live/on video.

i complain about ground loops and AC hum, but it's true that they can be the seed of interesting feedback loops. It's just that i don't want them when i don't want them

[Jace-BeOS]

The parts that sounded like ebow in the tRasHcAnMan piece are guitar with a volume pedal.

Got it. i think it'd be instructional to see people actually doing this stuff. Listening to the sounds can be interesting, but it's a guess as to what's really going on (which, admittedly, may be part of the appeal of the resulting sounds; when i learn how certain effects are done, i find them less interesting or even passé when i catch them on TV, ha ha).

As i posted i find feedback more fun to make out of box because of the one to one control of pedals, mixers, etc. That hi-tech Realistic reverb is a great start. It's really a BBD device like flangers, chorus, and analog delay. I once modifried one to do all of the above.

If that was a typo, "modifried", it's a great one i've seen people pursuing these Realistic Reverbs online, but i've never really given it much thought. It was given to me randomly by a friend, probably decades ago, as a suggestion for getting cheapo distortion by overloading it (he knew i loved NIN, and he was getting rid of stuff he didn't use).

Pedals can be had cheap cheap oftentimes on places like CL. Of course even cheap cheap isn't doable always. Perhaps you can scrounge up some free stuff.

i'll have to keep my eyes open. The only in-line guitar gear i have is a Radial JDI passive direct box i've never used (any interesting ways to misuse those?).

What DAW are you using?

Logic 9.x. on Snow Leopard and/or El Capitan. i have Reason 7, also, but i'm not fond of the tiny GUI. i refuse to upgrade until Propellerhead enlarge the GUI. i think my old license for Live is version 6 (though i think i have a license to Live Lite 7 or 8??). i never got comfortable with it and got sick of Ableton telling me my installation count was used up (i had lots of PC problems, which is why i'm on Macs now). i also have Tracktion 4(?). Outside of DAWs, for modular stuff i have Reaktor 5.x, but i'm not confident that i can build anything in it.

It would be worth it to see if you can get your copy of Live Lite working. For this sort of stuff Ableton is quite good.

What makes it stand out for this kind of stuff? Is the routing unique compared to other DAWs? i've never tried to do any complex routing in Logic's "Environment", so i don't know what's possible. It's unpleasant to work with.

Also what kind of midi controller do you have? You need something, even the simplest thing with a few knobs.

i have several controllers with knobs. i just wish MIDI wasn't so low-resolution. That's what has me most motivated to explore analog.

As posted just above you can do a lot with a crappy mixer. With your mixer and your "reverb" you're on your way. Do any of your digital effects have analog ins and outs?

They all have analog i/o on them. i don't use them, but i could set up an alternate analog studio routing (i'd need to buy a lot more cables, which is another reason i've never gotten around to doing anything like this). That's why i bought a patch bay. Never used it. Are patch bays actually confusing, or just confusingly simple?

The outboard digital FX gear i have:

• Roland VG99. Normally connected to guitar via special pickup, and then it goes digital out to the audio interface. Has some assignable knobs on the front panel and can process signals coming in through a standard ¼" connection, but that leaves out some of the more interesting effects (like the "Feedbacker") which only work on signals coming via the special pickup.

• Peavy Trans-Tube Fex. Can be pretty awesome sounding, but its parameter controls are on push buttons and only one can be changed at a time (the more common knobs seen on amps are replicated here as infinite stepping knobs). It's controllable by MIDI, but i've never found an editor that lets me assign CCs and freely modify parameters externally.

• Line 6 Pod XT Pro. Never got comfortable with it, but i could try again. Mostly distortion, since i never bought the FX expansion pack which has all the chorus and whatnot algorithms. Also has MIDI, but, as with the others, i'm not sure how to set up all my stuff the right way to control these devices remotely.

• TC Electronic Fireworx. Lots of menu diving and buttons. One assignable digital infinite stepping knob. Has MIDI but no editor that i know of.

• TC Helicon VoiceWorksPlus. i intentionally use this exactly not how it was intended (on anything but vocals). Has MIDI.

i'm not a guitarist, yet i have THREE guitar multi-effects units. i think it's because i like wrecking sounds. Each one has MIDI connections, but i've never done more than occasional librarian functions with them.

If so patch them on the output of the mixer and then run the output of the effect to another in on the mixer. Then run either a guitar, bass, or mic into the mixer. Yes, ideally a limiter and a volume pedal would help but just keep the amp vol Low.

Feedback is fun.

Thanks for all the suggestions! i suspect that i have a LOT of potential going to waste with my gear (i've had to repair things twice, despite such little usage, so i want to make use of this stuff before it breaks again). It was all bought on credit during a prescription drug and insane job stress era. It's all in working order, connected to a digital patch bay and MIDI patch bay, but i've never learned how to really take full advantage of everything.

i'm always torn between instant recall on the DAW and using the outboard gear that's just sitting unused. Logic's "Environment" feature might be what i need to work with here, but i find it ugly and non-intuitive (Apple hasn't touched it in two decades). i can't grok it. Tracktion's modular rack is attractive and easy to use, and is how i wish Logic's Environment operated. I don't care for Tracktion overall, but the racks feature kicks ass. Too bad it doesn't support external routing(?). But that's all i know of for integration and control of outboard gear. Every piece of outboard hardware i own with supposed "computer integration" is all abandoned software (when i leave Snow Leopard, i'll never again be able to use these programs/plugins). i now am entirely bitter about any hardware company marketing a new product with "computer/iOS integration" because they never maintain the software.

I've no local music peers and no training, so that's another reason this stuff goes to waste. But it is easier to do ITB stuff. My hardware is all digital and full of buttons and nothing really "playable", so maybe i just got sucked into the era of "digital everything" like so many people did for decades when digital came to replace analog ... and now analog is kicking back with a vengeance and people like me are going "oh, wait a minute, smooth parameter changes are nice!

[justin3am]

Just try stuff... don't worry about whether it will work or not.

If you go the pedal route, don't use nice pedals. I have a create of pedals I got for $5-15 from pawn shops or craigslist, which are my favorites for no-input stuff. I have 4 of those Realistic/Archer BBD reverbs (designed by Paul Schreiber of Synthesis Technology/MOTM, by the way), some Dan Electro graphic EQs (a copy of the Boss graphic EQ), some Arion pedals, an old Fostex Spring reverb... and make yourself something like this pocket gamelan. I want to try the Patchulator 8000 but I can't imagine paying that much for it.

When working with feedback in a DAW, a MIDI controller is crucial, it can be tricky balancing gain stages without one. Very small adjustments can result in big changes in sound and most of the range of a parameter may be useless, so you probably only need to control a parameter within a small range. 128 steps is fine control when you are working within a range of 1dB. Also it can be fun to use an envelope follower to open a VCA which controls the amount of feedback, then use your voice to drive that envelope follower.

If your DAW doesn't support feedback routing, maybe try something like Bidule, which can host plug-ins, while being hosted as a plug-in.

[Jace-BeOS]

Just try stuff... don't worry about whether it will work or not.

Good advise. Self-censorship is bad.

If you go the pedal route, don't use nice pedals.

Not much chance of that, ha ha

I have 4 of those Realistic/Archer BBD reverbs (designed by Paul Schreiber of Synthesis Technology/MOTM, by the way)

Huh. I just looked him up and listened to an interview with him on SoundCloud...

... and make yourself something like this pocket gamelan.

That page's stuff is hilarious

When working with feedback in a DAW, a MIDI controller is crucial, it can be tricky balancing gain stages without one. Very small adjustments can result in big changes in sound and most of the range of a parameter may be useless, so you probably only need to control a parameter within a small range. 128 steps is fine control when you are working within a range of 1dB.

Good to know MIDI's 128 steps is good enough, thanks!

If your DAW doesn't support feedback routing, maybe try something like Bidule, which can host plug-ins, while being hosted as a plug-in.

I've tested Bidule and found it interesting, but buggy. I keep an eye on Plogue's stuff, so I'll probably give it another go sooner or later.

[CrystalWizard]

Just try stuff... don't worry about whether it will work or not.

Best advice (feedback or no feedback.)

The parts that sounded like ebow in the tRasHcAnMan piece are guitar with a volume pedal.

Got it. i think it'd be instructional to see people actually doing this stuff. Listening to the sounds can be interesting, but it's a guess as to what's really going on (which, admittedly, may be part of the appeal of the resulting sounds; when i learn how certain effects are done, i find them less interesting or even passé when i catch them on TV, ha ha).

Haha, we would need a time machine for video of that piece from 3 decades ago. We often were told, "i can't figure out what instruments are doing what." As noisemongers we took that as the ultimate complement.

As i posted i find feedback more fun to make out of box because of the one to one control of pedals, mixers, etc. That hi-tech Realistic reverb is a great start. It's really a BBD device like flangers, chorus, and analog delay. I once modifried one to do all of the above.

If that was a typo, "modifried", it's a great one i've seen people pursuing these Realistic Reverbs online, but i've never really given it much thought.

No, not a typo, just my twisted sense of engineer humor. The realistics have 'character'.

i'll have to keep my eyes open. The only in-line guitar gear i have is a Radial JDI passive direct box i've never used (any interesting ways to misuse those?).

Not sure but i bet there is. They can be patched to eliminate ground loops though.

Outside of DAWs, for modular stuff i have Reaktor 5.x, but i'm not confident that i can build anything in it.

Even without building anything Reaktor is an FX playground.

It would be worth it to see if you can get your copy of Live Lite working. For this sort of stuff Ableton is quite good.

What makes it stand out for this kind of stuff? Is the routing unique compared to other DAWs?

I just mentioned it because you said you had the Lite version. Just contact Ableton and tell them you need another registration.

You have plenty enough hardware to get started and you have the software, too. Just patch it up and play with it. Because as PFunk says "Nothing is good unless you play with it."
Happy feedbacking.

[ReverendLove]

Built something like this yonks ago. Ace for experimenting with pedals and I can't remember why I stopped playing with it or even where it is now. Maybe I'll knock another one up this weekend.

I build exactly this and use it with inserted delays, reverbs and fuzz pedals. Pure madness can be that simple!
Then I use the aux send of my mixer insert some pedals and feed it to the input of the channel so there is no real input. Just this aux -> fx -> input loop. Then raise the faders and knobs carefully.
Both methods have pretty unpredictable results and are past recovery.
I like to use an ebow with my guitar, a fuzz factory connected to my ac 30 and ride it slowly into pure mess.
Well, feedback is not for wimps.

[ReverendLove]

Btw. Just found a new option. While most daws and other plugin hosts prevent feedback loops kushview's element allows exactly that. There you can't connect an output directly to an input but you only have to insert a gain plugin. Then it works. There you can avoid damage by using a brickwall limiter.
The feedback solution for the not so bold...

[highkoo]

Are there any VSTs that are built to do this in a DAW?
Like, 'walled off', so you can route in, and mayhem can occur inside the plugin, and not crash anything outside.

[justin3am]

Are there any VSTs that are built to do this in a DAW?
Like, 'walled off', so you can route in, and mayhem can occur inside the plugin, and not crash anything outside.

If you want to be able to feed a plug-ins output back to it's own input, I use Bidule for that. If you just want a plug-in that can do feedback as part of it's own signal path, u-he's ACE and Bazille, Reaktor, and most other modular plug-ins should do that.

[VariKusBrainZ]

Built something like this yonks ago. Ace for experimenting with pedals and I can't remember why I stopped playing with it or even where it is now. Maybe I'll knock another one up this weekend.

I build exactly this and use it with inserted delays, reverbs and fuzz pedals. Pure madness can be that simple!
Then I use the aux send of my mixer insert some pedals and feed it to the input of the channel so there is no real input. Just this aux -> fx -> input loop. Then raise the faders and knobs carefully.
Both methods have pretty unpredictable results and are past recovery.
I like to use an ebow with my guitar, a fuzz factory connected to my ac 30 and ride it slowly into pure mess.
Well, feedback is not for wimps.

The Electro Harmonix Chill Switch pedal is multi functional but I got it for feedback loops

[VariKusBrainZ]

Btw. Just found a new option. While most daws and other plugin hosts prevent feedback loops kushview's element allows exactly that. There you can't connect an output directly to an input but you only have to insert a gain plugin. Then it works. There you can avoid damage by using a brickwall limiter.
The feedback solution for the not so bold...

Ableton Live allows you to route feedback loops and few a other DAWs too, I forget which but theres a thread here somewhere.

Plogue Bidule also does

Bitwig and Mux/Mulab have delay modules with effect slots in the feedback loop

[VariKusBrainZ]

I route my patchbay though my RME and back again, makes it really easy to create feedback loops though hardware effects.

The Yamaha SPX990 has intelligent harmonising and when setup to self oscillate just sounds awesome

[kokotte]

good thread here:=)

it remember the old time when i was doing feedback with a dj mixer via the headphone output and a hand made jake and modulating some eq band!

if you use ableton, you should try the resonator in you loop.... a delay with a short time works great too, and i think, a comb could add some nice flavor(i didn't try it, but it could do some nice thing normally )

Reaper can do feedbackloop too but it must be enable in the pref.

[ReverendLove]

I route my patchbay though my RME and back again, makes it really easy to create feedback loops though hardware effects.

The Yamaha SPX990 has intelligent harmonising and when setup to self oscillate just sounds awesome

I can imagine that.

I do that on my Tascam too. This gives the biggest freedom as you can insert software plugins before output, in the input bus and insert hardware effects in the route. For creating harmonics I use an EHX hog 2 - instant rich feedback drone. Fading the harmonics on the hog does not what you would expect but used to it you can control a swarm of insects. Exactly what I like.

[VariKusBrainZ]

I route my patchbay though my RME and back again, makes it really easy to create feedback loops though hardware effects.

The Yamaha SPX990 has intelligent harmonising and when setup to self oscillate just sounds awesome

I can imagine that.

I do that on my Tascam too. This gives the biggest freedom as you can insert software plugins before output, in the input bus and insert hardware effects in the route. For creating harmonics I use an EHX hog 2 - instant rich feedback drone. Fading the harmonics on the hog does not what you would expect but used to it you can control a swarm of insects. Exactly what I like.

Yeah, RME mixer allows me to route anything anywhere whether its software or hardware and has a specific loopback function.