Do samples kill the *real* electronic music?

[audiosabre]

Questioning methodology without knowledge of artistic intent merely undermines agency. One need not justify any of it.

Think about it. Even things lambasted here as uncreative could have reasoned, or dare I say original intent behind it. In many cases probably not, but we don't necessarily know for certain unless explicitly stated.

So be as uncreative as you can & do it on purpose. You'll have the last laugh

[jancivil]

It would appear you have_no_idea what Stockhausen or Cage did.

Pity that the historical evidence from the past ten-plus years here is that cron is one of the rather few people around here who does.

But hey, nobody with a different opinion from you could ever know what they're talking about, right?

Right. Show me the "historical evidence" came to light in the past ten years which makes that true. Seriously. What are you even talking about.

Your last sentence is absurd and just stupid. See if you can discern 'specific' from 'general' first.

"None had the immediately transformative cultural and musical impact hip-hop did."
He shows us what, again? It's just a broad assertion, it does nothing but give us a disposition.
You're reading in and making this wild assertion just trying to insult me it looks like. But show me something. You're quite good with condescension in tone, not many people can give us that much tone on the screen, so congrats for that.

[jancivil]

Questioning methodology without knowledge of artistic intent merely undermines agency. One need not justify any of it.

Straw man argument.

[jancivil]

"[...] musical impact hip-hop did."

Hip hop is largely amusical. It has negligible impact on musical culture, speaking as a musician. {Oh, 'In My Opinion', yeah? This looks like a true statement and the thing I'm against here not at all.}

It's most of it just UNmusical. This statement was made as though to dismiss the impact of Karlheinz Stockhausen and John Cage. Immediate? Ok, well what do we want here to make that true? Impact. On whom? Popular disposable crap? I'm hearing the cultural impact every day. It's not good. It gets worse every day. It's recycling the same f**king thing everybody else has with no new ideas. Or really ideas is a suspect term to even deal in here. So having a very scant clipboard of ideas has definitely had an impact. It's just negative, though. Maybe that's what cron means? Yeah, download a 2-bar MIDI from some site on the net, send it to a vi with no work done in it at all, or hey, just get a loop and repeat it for the whole track and you're done. This is the most important development in musical culture ever!

What are we talking about? How can we prove our opinions? That's mine, rabbyt take it or leave it.
You didn't even argue an idea or really make any argument, it's just another statement of a disposition. Ad hominem, in place of saying anything I mean.

What will history show? Which geniuses in hip hop are going to stand the test of time in the area of music? Where is their John Cage?

[jancivil]

Where I come from, culturally, I had hopes for it, hip hop. Didn't pan out. Musically, we can deal only in the rhythm, the drum aspect. It's very mannered. At this point, it's all manner and no substance. The same thing recycled over and over a million times, it's pretty worn.

This is an opinion. If I'm missing it, show me. I mean FUNK has this huge impact on Miles Davis and many of us were majorly impacted by that circa early 1970s.

George Duke in Backyard Barbecue on TUTU was impacted by popular trends and sounds in the R&B area. And Miles' later music was impacted some more here.

This is where I live, I am in it and as far as I'm concerned hip hop hasn't moved that forward really at all. Show me what I missed, though. Where's the impact on substantial music.

[elxsound]

I don't think there's a single KVR member that wants this conversation.

Where do you begin with separating your opinion of hip from your reverence for John Cage, defining "substantial music" and measuring cultural impact in a way that you deem satisfactory.

I for one think that if you believe John Cage has had a greater impact, then just run with that and don't look back.

[dune_rave]

Another silly thread
So plugins like Absynth or Alchemy or Kontakt or Avenger or .................. kill electronic music? (because they use samples)
I don't think so!

[Krakatau]

Another silly thread
So plugins like Absynth or Alchemy or Kontakt or Avenger or .................. kill electronic music? (because they use samples)
I don't think so!

no that's not the point, rather sampled loops as pre-produced content

_____

BTW a interesting challenge would be to create an entire composition made exclusively with copyright samples ...cheating would be using a single custom-made sample ?

[RetroMagicSounds]

They don't killl it as long as you are not overdoing it.

[elxsound]

BTW a interesting challenge would be to create an entire composition made exclusively with copyright samples ...cheating would be using a single custom-made sample ?

That would be an interesting challenge. In the PBS Soundbreaking series they touched briefly on the impact of sampling and one of the songs that stood out for the number of sample used was Pump Up the Volume by MARRS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_Up_the_Volume_(song)

What can be interesting, is not just the samples themselves, but the methods used. Look at what Wu-Tang did with enter the 36 chambers. I've read that one of the samplers used was an SP1200. I have an SP12 and that is a bitch to use (compared to in the box sample manipulation) and I want to complain that part of the reason is because of NYC living, but I'm not so certain the space constraints were any different in Staten Island.

Then look at some of the new cheap tools like the Volca Sample and PO K.O. or PO Speak from Teenage Engineering. Imagine if these were around in the 70s/80s/90s

Anyway, again... the OP opened this up with less to do with sampling but more as relates to construction kits and the lazy so-called producers who only use them. My opinion is that their music won't matter, but but using them/making them does nothing to hurt music in the long run.

[egbert101]

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[jancivil]

At one point in this disaster movie I thought 'cron' had said that Cage and Stockhausen were recycling other people's music. A slight syntactical problem here but I now think cron meant that the hip hoppers were 'these guys' what did that. Which means we were seeing an assertion (not any argument) that the real path to innovation was being unoriginal on purpose.

But my vehement reaction to that should not mean that I know what cron knows about these two musicians. If the sentence meant - and this makes even less sense than the other way to me - Cage and Stockhausen were the 'these guys' recycling other people's music, yeah. But again nothing in the post makes any sense or was very good discourse as far as I am concerned. So if you, cron, happen to be quite expert on Cage and Stockhausen yet dismiss them in favor of <recycling is innovative>, I'm sorry I failed to grok your dodgy syntax.

As a drummer, I find very, very little novel in hip hop music. I remember seeing someone write that the most sampled drum beat in rap was Mary, Mary by the Monkees. Which is what, 1966? The hip hop rhythm we all hear is typically more syncopated but I don't think I would bet that some hip hop artist was the first to do it. So I gotta wonder about this assertion *evidence* in the last ten years is going to show someone dismissing Cage and Stockhausen in favor of hip hop is the one person round here who got it right.

"immediate impact" on the culture and on music. I think both of these terms are suspect because we'll have to accept a rather narrow viewpoint first. The culture impacted there may be actually rather insular. I don't know when this was supposed to have had this huge impact 'on music', either. Immediately, does this mean during the 1970s? Was it hip hop fans of disco or its detractors; who was impacted by what, exactly, and how? It looks like to me in retrospect that by the time I heard it it was pretty much reliant on [loops of] funk beats. So we seem to be looking at an assertion that 'other people's music' recycled is more innovative than anything.

It seems like bullshit.

[elxsound]

The original poster didn't say anything about construction kits. He said "samples". If he meant construction kits, he didn't mention it in his post, and he doesn't seem all that interested in this thread either.

Yes he said sample, but he referenced an article that focused on using loops (yeah, not construction kits, but those construction kits are full of loops).

Anyway, that article sounds more like a disgruntled musician mad because someone was able to do something possibly better or faster than they could and then he decided to focus his anger on people who use loops. Sure there's some good advice for some, but it reminds me of one of my early drum teacher who said that the thing with creative disciplines is that there is always someone younger and better that just naturally makes that one thing you've finally mastered look easy and best of all, it really was easy for them.

And for samples vs loops, the reason why specifying is important is because samples and sampling covers lots of ground where loops are just one component of samples and sampling. Yay.

As for the OP losing interest... Since when has that mattered on KVR?

[egbert101]

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[donkey tugger]

Electricity is killing music.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36211789