Logic Pro v10.4 is out

[Jace-BeOS]

Anyone still using Kontakt 3 with Logic 10.4?

[jonljacobi]

Anyone still using Kontakt 3 with Logic 10.4?

I have songs that use it. Why?

[jonljacobi]

I’m posting this because I bumped into something I’ve never had happen after applying a Logic Pro X update. Sorry if it’s a little long-winded.

Within an hour or two after installing 10.4, the application began to quickly degrade all mouse driven graphical and menu selection activity. An example would be: selecting a track and watching a beachball for almost 15 seconds before the track actually became selected. The entire program began behaving like this for every operation. It was basically slowing to a crawl.

I began to consider rolling back to the previous version. I went online to see if anybody else was experiencing anything like this. As expected, because the update is so new, I couldn’t find anything specific on the subject of 10.4. However, there were a number of postings discussing earlier versions of Logic, where something similar was occurring….all of them filled with suggestions discussing OS, hardware, or audio setup issues…etc. as possible solutions. None of which solved the problem for any of the original posters. A lot of wild goose chases.

I’ve had something like this occur after updating Cubase from time to time, and that almost always led to a corrupted preference. In all the years I’ve used Logic, I’ve never had any reason to muck about with the program to fix something like this. I simply thought the update was flawed. I was completely unfamiliar with where or how many preference files Apple installs/generates for the program.

I had to start somewhere, so I went here:

BootHD/Users/YourName/LIbrary/Preferences/.

I found: com.apple.logic.pro.cs. It reported a file size of 173 mb. I looked for the same file in a backup HD containing the previous version. It reported a file size of 15kb for the same file. As that version had been used extensively for over a year, that seemed like a big difference.

For safety, I compressed the 10.4 generated version of that file, trashed the original and rebooted Logic. The program regenerated the file and reported it as 15kb.

I ran the program for a few hours, working on some new stuff and a bunch of older projects while checking out new features and plug-ins. Same thing I did after the initial update.

Worked a charm. No slowdown anywhere. I double-checked the size of the com.apple.logic.pro.cs. file. Still 15kb.

Just thought I’d pass this tip along.

Yeah, deleting the preferences is a cure for much weirdness after updates. I had issues with snap that was related to this as well.

[Jace-BeOS]

Anyone still using Kontakt 3 with Logic 10.4?

I have songs that use it. Why?

i'm not financially ready to replace all my older 3rd-party plugins, so i'm debating whether i can just migrate Kontakt 3 to my Sierra/Logic 10.4 config, or if Logic X (or Sierra) will cause problems for it. If i can keep using it without problems, i might put the spending priority on something else.

[pdxindy]

I have the latest Logic Remote on my iPad. I only installed it recently and have tried it once to see that it works. What are the steps to try and reproduce your problem?

Try to play Sculpture in MIDI Mono Mode from the Logic Remote app (try independent pitch slide per note while playing multiple notes at once). I can't get it to play any way but standard (no MPE-type expression per note).

The other instruments that have the MIDI Mono Mode setting work for me. Sculpture is the only one that doesn't.

It's the first time I tried the Logic Remote keyboard (I have a Linnstrument). It does seem something is not right with Sculpture. I think the MPE is working, however, the pitch range is very small (even though set correctly) so you hardly hear it. Over an octave slide is less than a half step. Even just a single note does not pitchbend the correct amount. Changing the pitch range on Sculpture seems to have no effect.

Alchemy works as expected.

I also tried the Fretboard with Sculpture and that bends as expected.

[Jace-BeOS]

I have the latest Logic Remote on my iPad. I only installed it recently and have tried it once to see that it works. What are the steps to try and reproduce your problem?

Try to play Sculpture in MIDI Mono Mode from the Logic Remote app (try independent pitch slide per note while playing multiple notes at once). I can't get it to play any way but standard (no MPE-type expression per note).

The other instruments that have the MIDI Mono Mode setting work for me. Sculpture is the only one that doesn't.

It's the first time I tried the Logic Remote keyboard (I have a Linnstrument). It does seem something is not right with Sculpture. I think the MPE is working, however, the pitch range is very small (even though set correctly) so you hardly hear it. Over an octave slide is less than a half step. Even just a single note does not pitchbend the correct amount. Changing the pitch range on Sculpture seems to have no effect.

Alchemy works as expected.

I also tried the Fretboard with Sculpture and that bends as expected.

Oh i couldn't get independent pitch bends at all in Sculpture. If you are getting even a little bit, that's more than what i experienced. Though when i set up EXS24 or ES2 with MIDI Mono Mode, the range was huge. The setting for pitch bend range in the instrument might be responsible for this, but i don't see why it was dramatically different from patch to patch when they were all set to 48 semitones.

EDIT: Logic Remote is the only controller i have that can do MPE. i am hoping to eventually get that one iPad synth from Jordan Rudess' software developer, to use as an MPE MIDI controller, and ultimately i want something like a Roli Seaboard. But for now, i'd be happy if Logic's Logic Remote would work consistently for this purpose just in Logic.

[pdxindy]

It's the first time I tried the Logic Remote keyboard (I have a Linnstrument). It does seem something is not right with Sculpture. I think the MPE is working, however, the pitch range is very small (even though set correctly) so you hardly hear it. Over an octave slide is less than a half step. Even just a single note does not pitchbend the correct amount. Changing the pitch range on Sculpture seems to have no effect.

Alchemy works as expected.

I also tried the Fretboard with Sculpture and that bends as expected.

Oh i couldn't get independent pitch bends at all in Sculpture. If you are getting even a little bit, that's more than what i experienced. Though when i set up EXS24 or ES2 with MIDI Mono Mode, the range was huge. The setting for pitch bend range in the instrument might be responsible for this, but i don't see why it was dramatically different from patch to patch when they were all set to 48 semitones.

EDIT: Logic Remote is the only controller i have that can do MPE. i am hoping to eventually get that one iPad synth from Jordan Rudess' software developer, to use as an MPE MIDI controller, and ultimately i want something like a Roli Seaboard. But for now, i'd be happy if Logic's Logic Remote would work consistently for this purpose just in Logic.

Can you get a the correct pitchbend with Sculpture even with just 1 note?

[jonljacobi]

The Kontakt 3 player worked fine with several large multi-instruments. I did not kick the tires thoroughly. Just a few minutes. Kontakt 5 player worked as well.

[v1o]

Not only is Logic impressive... but both the rate of development (basically for free) and what they add/improve is too. The development team is clearly paying attention and has the resources to keep a swift pace.

I can't disagree. I've been watching training videos to catch up on it since I'm two versions behind, and they've done a lot of great stuff. I wish the interface was still dark though, I use the None More Black theme in DP9!

Nah Logic is just as shady in terms of business practices. The whole application is a giant loss leader which independent software developers cannot hope to ever compete with. Furthermore they have a habit of buying out small developers, discontinuing genuinely excellent product and then offering those products only within Logic. Like Redmatica and Camel Audio.

Remember Logic used to cost nearly 600 bucks retail. That old price reflected what it cost to produce such a piece of software. Right now it is being sold (dumped) on the market below cost at a massive loss to kill competition.

You know I don't buy it at all that Logic is a loss leader. Every DAW I know of costs $200 to upgrade, Logic cost $200 every time, no upgrades. The difference in initial purchase isn't enough to say Logic is losing money for them, especially when people will both complain and buy a mac to run it. Sure hardware is a bigger reason for Apple, but look at Reaper. It's arguably developed at a faster rate and has more features, (better VCA implementation etc.) and cost $60 with no hardware sales behind it to back it up. The developer made Winamp like 12 years ago, even if he made a couple million on it, if Reaper was not making him money he would have slowed development at the very least. If I still had a Mackie Control instead of the Slate Raven here for mixing I would have decided on Reaper actually, but the Raven doesn't support Reaper. That and the SL MKII control surface support in Reaper is a POS.

To be fair, it's dammed near impossible to get the kind of rabid fanbases both Apple and Cockos have, the stir Reaper caused right away with the $60 price point and Logic getting thousands of new customers from people convinced Apple can do not wrong can't be matched by Steinberg, Avid, and Bitwig etc. But I think all DAW developers might benefit from chopping down their initial price for sure.

Oh, and Ableton by proxy did similar things to me in terms of Pluggo, Cycling 74 immediatly announced they weren't developing in and embedding it into Live when Live got Max. Pretty much all successful companies buy technology and make it theirs, it's lame I suppose, if you hate capitalism.

Apple make their money from selling hardware. Logic (and also FCP) is a loss leader, it entices you to buy a Mac computer in order to run it. In the end consumers up paying more because Apple have a monopoly on the market for Macs and there just isn’t much choice in terms of hardware. You can for example build a capable PC system for a quarter of the price - you just have to pay more for the DAW software.

The only reason Logic costs $200 every time to upgrade is because Apple’s App Store eco system doesn’t have functionality for upgrade pricing. It’s like that for all apps on the store, you literally have to make a fresh purchase whenever a new version is released. It is anti consumer and many App Store developers have complained but that’s just the way it is.

A Reaper commercial license costs $225. To be fair Reaper is a completely bare bones DAW in terms of content. It literally ships with just the executable itself and nothing more apart from a few generic devices. Logic ships with several gigabytes of commercial quality patches and sound libraries. A high end instrument sample library (like Strings, brass, piano) could literally cost you $100 or more to buy on its own, Logic ships with several. Also Logic ships with several commercial quality instruments and fx. Alchemy a single instrument in Logic used to cost $250 to buy on its own without all the extra libraries. Logic’s reverb and eq plugins would probably be very expensive items if they were available to buy on their own. Reaper is not a good comparison. Cubase is a lot closer to Logic but with less content.

[v1o]

My original point was that Apple is not indulging in saintly behavior, after someone said they were turned off by Microsoft blackmailing vendors in the 90's. Not that it's the avatar for corporate greed, though they do play the "game" well. Last I checked, Apple's effective tax rate was around 9%. I don't know what you pay, but I pay a higher rate than that. Better than GE though, which many years has paid no taxes at all. I'm not making this up, the information is out there.

To another argument... Logic is simply a loss leader for the hardware.

All I'm saying is don't buy from Apple because you somehow think it's a kind and gentle entity. It's not. Buy from Apple because you like the product. I like Logic. I like OS X.

9% is better than nothing. Apple pretty much paid peanuts to the EU and U.K. treasury for years even after making billions. As consumers we need to hold the brands we like accountable for all their actions. Remember Apple markets themselves as both a sustainable and ethical business.

[pdxindy]

The only reason Logic costs $200 every time to upgrade is because Apple’s App Store eco system doesn’t have functionality for upgrade pricing. It’s like that for all apps on the store, you literally have to make a fresh purchase whenever a new version is released. It is anti consumer and many App Store developers have complained but that’s just the way it is.

That is false... twice

Logic doesn't cost $200 every time to upgrade and you don't have to make a fresh purchase whenever a upgrade is released. Only for paid upgrades.

Logic Pro X was released 4 years ago. Since that time it has received multiple paid upgrades worth of new features across many individual updates. 10.4 alone is as big as many companies paid upgrades. At the rate Apple is going, it will be another 4-5 years before Apple even gets to a version 11.

Getting 5-6-7 years of major updates for free is not anti-consumer.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

The only reason Logic costs $200 every time to upgrade is because Apple’s App Store eco system doesn’t have functionality for upgrade pricing. It’s like that for all apps on the store, you literally have to make a fresh purchase whenever a new version is released. It is anti consumer and many App Store developers have complained but that’s just the way it is.

That is false... twice

Logic doesn't cost $200 every time to upgrade and you don't have to make a fresh purchase whenever a upgrade is released. Only for paid upgrades.

Logic Pro X was released 4 years ago. Since that time it has received multiple paid upgrades worth of new features across many individual updates. 10.4 alone is as big as many companies paid upgrades. At the rate Apple is going, it will be another 4-5 years before Apple even gets to a version 11.

Getting 5-6-7 years of major updates for free is not anti-consumer.

Yup! I'm sure Cubase has paid updates every 6 months, or so. And that after a not insignificant upfront investment

[machinesworking]

A Reaper commercial license costs $225.

If you are not a professional musician making 20K or over Reaper costs $60.
So that's the price we should be looking at. Professionals are going to use what they find to be the best, not what is most cost effective.

To be fair Reaper is a completely bare bones DAW in terms of content. It literally ships with just the executable itself and nothing more apart from a few generic devices. Logic ships with several gigabytes of commercial quality patches and sound libraries. A high end instrument sample library (like Strings, brass, piano) could literally cost you $100 or more to buy on its own, Logic ships with several. Also Logic ships with several commercial quality instruments and fx. Alchemy a single instrument in Logic used to cost $250 to buy on its own without all the extra libraries. Logic’s reverb and eq plugins would probably be very expensive items if they were available to buy on their own. Reaper is not a good comparison. Cubase is a lot closer to Logic but with less content.

I own Logic, Digital Performer, and Live. I'm probably buying a copy of Reaper as well.
Why? because Cockos have spent all of their development not on loop libraries and plug ins, but on DAW functionality. Reaper already has access to online collaboration, Spectral editing, better VCA implementation, arguably better time stretching, and in general Cockos have worked on the core of the software. Plus it's $60, cross platform with no hardware they're trying to sell you later, and no huge bundle of embedded plug ins that you will lose if you use another DAW. Yet despite and because of these points they've been able to keep in business and grow in popularity since 04.

You touched on Logic's big selling point for most people, the embedded plug ins, fair enough, but I would say that's not a loss leader at all. Look at it this way, you buy Cubase Pro for $545, the update from 8 to 9 is $199. This is the same for Pro Tools, DP, Studio One, Live etc. etc. The other developers haven't caught on, Reaper and Logic are doing really really well, spending a lot of money on development and coming in at a lower price up front. Can it be argued that Logic is a loss leader for Apples hardware? sure, but you have to ignore Reapers success to do so. My point is I 100% doubt with no reservation that Apple are losing money developing Logic and just use it as a loss leader for hardware. It's obvious they sell this thing like hotcakes, and because the upgrades are the same price as everyone else’s it's not that big of a discount to begin with. Sure, they also cash in on it being mac only, that's not the point, the point is it can't be a loss leader if it isn't losing them money.
Reaper is 100% the best comparison, not because the content is the same, but because the business model is to offer a lot for not much money, and do really well because of that. Yes, Apple has the “ulterior motive” of if they offer a great DAW that hooks you in, then you continue to use macs, but it still doesn’t mean it’s a loss leader, and the obvious reason to think this is because successful DAWs like Reaper are being offered to those of us who can’t write it off in their taxes, (the other reason pros use what they think is the best, not what is cheapest), at three times lower in price than Logic and have been for over ten years.

I personally would rather have spectral editing in Logic than more embedded instruments. Same with FX, I have better limiters, compressors, reverbs, delays, than what’s in Logic. I bought another copy of Logic for the things it does that I can’t get in DP and Live- VCA faders, key limits on MIDI tracks, better bounce options etc. Plus I used it for years, before the Apple buy out even, and it still was one of the top DAWs back then.

“Apple is making money off of hardware so therefore Logic being so feature rich is because it’s a loss leader!” is such a strange argument considering it’s obvious success as a DAW. After an FX or instrument gets embedded into Logic, about how much development time do you think it’s going to need? Ever notice how Logic still only allows 16 MIDI channels in and no separation by port on instrument tracks? or from what I remember MIDI from virtual instruments like Reaktor can’t be routed to drive with their sequencers other MIDI and VI tracks? Those are expensive core of the software type things to fix, adding new FX and instruments are cheap compared.

Last kicker on this, I'm not alone in being a "hobbyist musician" mac user who bought a copy of Logic even though I own other DAWs. That can't be said about Cubase, I don't think very many Logic users buy Cubase, but I would bet a lot of Live, Pro Tools, Reason, and DP users already on mac buy a copy of Logic.

Loss leader my ass!

[machinesworking]

The only reason Logic costs $200 every time to upgrade is because Apple’s App Store eco system doesn’t have functionality for upgrade pricing. It’s like that for all apps on the store, you literally have to make a fresh purchase whenever a new version is released. It is anti consumer and many App Store developers have complained but that’s just the way it is.

That is false... twice

Logic doesn't cost $200 every time to upgrade and you don't have to make a fresh purchase whenever a upgrade is released. Only for paid upgrades.

Logic Pro X was released 4 years ago. Since that time it has received multiple paid upgrades worth of new features across many individual updates. 10.4 alone is as big as many companies paid upgrades. At the rate Apple is going, it will be another 4-5 years before Apple even gets to a version 11.

Getting 5-6-7 years of major updates for free is not anti-consumer.

This is a weird conversation. Yes, Logic costs exactly the same to upgrade as it does to buy, which fits Apples cheap software online store model. No, Apple are not anti consumer by driving the initial price of applications down so it's essentially the same price upgrades used to cost, and setting up a system that doesn't accommodate for upgrade pricing. You didn't pay as much for the item up front, and the money out of pocket is the same as the old model, so how is that anti consumer??

No, the unpaid free updates are not upgrades. We need to keep the meaning of the term upgrade to mean paid. Yes you can argue that Logic has great updates that are equivalent to some other DAWs paid upgrades, but I guess I'm just lucky, look at the updates that Live got between 9 and 10, and that DP got between 8 and now! Notice the amount of time as well. Cubase and Pro Tools are doing it wrong, that's what you get out of that.

[pdxindy]

No, the unpaid free updates are not upgrades. We need to keep the meaning of the term upgrade to mean paid. Yes you can argue that Logic has great updates that are equivalent to some other DAWs paid upgrades, but I guess I'm just lucky, look at the updates that Live got between 9 and 10, and that DP got between 8 and now! Notice the amount of time as well. Cubase and Pro Tools are doing it wrong, that's what you get out of that.

I'm disappointed with the core development of Live over the past 5 years. It' been very slow. I don't consider that lucky. If there were a couple paid upgrades over that time, I would have preferred that. Then I actually have a choice to pay some money to get some functionality I want.

As for upgrade or update... just pointless semantics when it comes to functionality. Zebra has not had an 'upgrade' for 10 years but it has developed a huge amount in that time.