Hello. Been browsing these forums for a while, but have only just joined up. I am quite new to making computer music, and would appreciate some help.
I have nearly finished a song, using VST 5. Listening to the song, the mix is obviously muddy in places. I need to sort this out. Slightly panning
instruments helps a little, but I obviously have frequency clashes. I have read a few mags with tips on eq and mastering, but I find that they do not make things clear enough. You tend to get statements like ..'make a cut at 32khz' (or suchlike) which is frankly NO help at all. How do I isolate where all these individual instruments are in the frequency spectrum?
Any help with sorting a muddy mix would be appreciated. Its not like I am using tons of different instruments in the song, in fact, here is the tracklist
Drums
Fretless bass
Piano
Strings (Single violin, not wash chord)
Wash chords
Thats it. Please help.
Newbie, mix help please?
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
You can do a frequency sweep with a parametric EQ of each track looking for problems. Try to find each instruments important freq area and cut the rest to make room for other instruments.
Don't solo each instrument trying to get the best sound for each. This will make all of the instruments too full spectrum and guarantee that they will clash.
Download the free Inspector plug in or one of the other spectrum analyzers (voxengo span, and the cplugs analyzer). Put it on a track and it will show you that tracks frequency spectrum.
Don't solo each instrument trying to get the best sound for each. This will make all of the instruments too full spectrum and guarantee that they will clash.
Download the free Inspector plug in or one of the other spectrum analyzers (voxengo span, and the cplugs analyzer). Put it on a track and it will show you that tracks frequency spectrum.
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- KVRAF
- 1954 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK
A useful thing is to solo a track, then apply a big EQ boost and sweep the frequency of the EQ. That way you will find roughly where the dominant frequencies are.
This is then a guideline for what to cut/boost in each track. If 2 tracks have roughly the same area of dominant frequencies, you can adjust these 2 to sit better etc.
By the way i'm no expert, just something i picked up over the years
This is then a guideline for what to cut/boost in each track. If 2 tracks have roughly the same area of dominant frequencies, you can adjust these 2 to sit better etc.
By the way i'm no expert, just something i picked up over the years
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original flipper original flipper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8999
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex
HI
OR don't mess with EQ at all - but you will have to 'pick' your sounds/instuments more carefully from the beggining of composition to make sure there are no major sonic clashes - unless thats what your after.
I tend to use filtering rather than eq but it depends on what type of music your making, yes filtering is basically eq but it tends to be radical rather than subtle (in my case).
Flipper.
OR don't mess with EQ at all - but you will have to 'pick' your sounds/instuments more carefully from the beggining of composition to make sure there are no major sonic clashes - unless thats what your after.
I tend to use filtering rather than eq but it depends on what type of music your making, yes filtering is basically eq but it tends to be radical rather than subtle (in my case).
Flipper.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 10 Sep, 2004 from Sheffield. UK.
Hi guys, thanks for your help.
After making a mix of the track, and playing it in my car, I now know that I have two specific problems.
Any help in rectifying these would be much appreciated.
1) The piano, which is Sampletanks Free's accoustic3 piano, sounds a little lifeless. This is despite using a touch of reverb. Any advice on making it shine? (I don't believe it is the performance as I am actually a grade 6 classical pianist)
2) The bass line. This is a fretless from Trilogy. The issue is with continuity of the sound. Sometimes
you can HEAR the notes, and sometimes you can FEEL them. (The lower notes obviously) Ideally,
I would like to be able to hear AND feel the bassline if possible. Again, any tips? Compression?
After making a mix of the track, and playing it in my car, I now know that I have two specific problems.
Any help in rectifying these would be much appreciated.
1) The piano, which is Sampletanks Free's accoustic3 piano, sounds a little lifeless. This is despite using a touch of reverb. Any advice on making it shine? (I don't believe it is the performance as I am actually a grade 6 classical pianist)
2) The bass line. This is a fretless from Trilogy. The issue is with continuity of the sound. Sometimes
you can HEAR the notes, and sometimes you can FEEL them. (The lower notes obviously) Ideally,
I would like to be able to hear AND feel the bassline if possible. Again, any tips? Compression?
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- KVRAF
- 1954 posts since 15 Nov, 2003 from London, UK
Ancoats,
The things you are saying are very descriptive, but its difficult to diagnose any particular problem.
Mixing is a very trciky thing because its all down to what you like the sound of, which is diffrent for everyone.
If the bass sounds a little thin in places, some moderate EQ-ing might help. The thing to remember is that if you sit for hours tweaking sounds, then your ears get tired and you have less chance of getting the sound you want.
Perhaps take a break, listen to some CD's, come back tomorrow etc and listen with fresh ears, it might help a lot. And remember, with EQ its generally preferable to cut rather than boost, especially with acoustic instruments. too much boosting tenss to make things sound artificial.
Unfortunately there is no "universal" trick for making stuff sound good. its just practise really.
Hope you get it sounding cool mate
The things you are saying are very descriptive, but its difficult to diagnose any particular problem.
Mixing is a very trciky thing because its all down to what you like the sound of, which is diffrent for everyone.
If the bass sounds a little thin in places, some moderate EQ-ing might help. The thing to remember is that if you sit for hours tweaking sounds, then your ears get tired and you have less chance of getting the sound you want.
Perhaps take a break, listen to some CD's, come back tomorrow etc and listen with fresh ears, it might help a lot. And remember, with EQ its generally preferable to cut rather than boost, especially with acoustic instruments. too much boosting tenss to make things sound artificial.
Unfortunately there is no "universal" trick for making stuff sound good. its just practise really.
Hope you get it sounding cool mate
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
For bass that you can feel, but not hear clearly try to fix it by boosting with EQ between 1k and 5k.
Somewhere in there you will find a good sounding area.
Sometines a boost around 400-500 hz works.
These boosts will also help the bass to be heard on small systems like potable radios and other bass deficient systems.
As for the piano, just try different pianos.
Somewhere in there you will find a good sounding area.
Sometines a boost around 400-500 hz works.
These boosts will also help the bass to be heard on small systems like potable radios and other bass deficient systems.
As for the piano, just try different pianos.
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- KVRAF
- 8705 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
The piano - you may need to boost some mid or highermid Eq to get it to shine. 2.5KHz is a frequency that generally is picked up extremely well by ears, but be careful with the boost - too much and it will grate - and remember that generally, if you boost one sound, you may need to cut another around the same area. Possibly even 3-4000Hz might do it for a piano. I don't generally like Eq boosting (I prefer to cut, or to pick another source sound), but remember that some samples can be lacking in top end - they may have been culled off records which don't have a good high end to start with. Or they may have been culled direct from some S+S synth with some kind of lowpass in the patch, which will cut some of the high end. Or they have been hicut and boosted in the mids, just to make them sound powerful when trialled on their own off a CD. Samples generally do not shine in my experience.
So if you boost the piano - you may need to cut something else - a good start may be the pads. You've got a violin and wash chords - they probably both compete for the same space - in fact the wash chords probably compete with everything for space - so that's a good place to start when looking for rolling off some Eq. Find the dominant frequency range for the violin and maybe cut an octave by a few dB on the chords. You may need to do a fine cut in the chords at the drum frequencies too - anywhere between 600-1000Hz. Although big washy chords sound great on their own, they are huge culprits for drowning out everything else - A good example of pads for me is bands like Faithless - they often have big sounding lush pads, but if you listen carefully, they have quite low frequency pads - not much in the way of big washyness in the mids and above - and they carefully mix so the kicks and basslines aren't drowned by the pads either.
Another thought is you mentioned reverb. Remember, reverb generally makes a sound sit further back in the mix. You might want or need reverb on the piano, but make it a small bright reverb, not a big one. And if reverb is a main theme on the piano, then try to get all the other instruments not using much reverb, if any. That way it might stand out - if everything has reverb on it, then the piano won't stand out. Unless it's the only instrument without it.
Bassline - the most difficult area for anyone to mix. Could be a number of things.
Have you got a kick that's competing in the same frequencies as some bassline notes? If so, then roll off some of that Eq from the kick. Also basscut everything else - especially pads - pads can have a sizeable bottom end, and you don't need sub100Hz on a pad. In fact consider cutting bass from anything that is synthesized with a lowpass filter.
Bassline might need boosting somewhere - you just have to experiment. Or you could try different expression with the bassline - play the weedy notes louder, or set the bassline to filter differently - maybe the lower it plays, it should actually boost the filter instead of cut - play with the filter tracking - that can help.
Or, yes, you could compress the bassline - but then be aware that it will also make it more powerful in all frequency bands - especially problem areas such as the boomy 150-200Hz or the boxy 300Hz areas. And it will then also compete more with any kicks.
Another trick is to try out sidechained compressors - key the bassline with the kick: then the compressor will subtly drop the volume of the bassline when the kick sounds; less competition that way.
Even really odd things like transposing might help - some basslines don't need to be really deep. I used to be a bugger for trying to get every bassline thundering away at low octaves. When I transposed some of them up an octave, they actually sounded clearer but still bassy if it was a decent bass patch.
And it could be a whole load of other things too. But Pads are generally always a problematic area that need toning down or Eq cutting in some areas. And if you want a bright piano, then don't have bright drums.
All worth a try - might not work, but who knows?
So if you boost the piano - you may need to cut something else - a good start may be the pads. You've got a violin and wash chords - they probably both compete for the same space - in fact the wash chords probably compete with everything for space - so that's a good place to start when looking for rolling off some Eq. Find the dominant frequency range for the violin and maybe cut an octave by a few dB on the chords. You may need to do a fine cut in the chords at the drum frequencies too - anywhere between 600-1000Hz. Although big washy chords sound great on their own, they are huge culprits for drowning out everything else - A good example of pads for me is bands like Faithless - they often have big sounding lush pads, but if you listen carefully, they have quite low frequency pads - not much in the way of big washyness in the mids and above - and they carefully mix so the kicks and basslines aren't drowned by the pads either.
Another thought is you mentioned reverb. Remember, reverb generally makes a sound sit further back in the mix. You might want or need reverb on the piano, but make it a small bright reverb, not a big one. And if reverb is a main theme on the piano, then try to get all the other instruments not using much reverb, if any. That way it might stand out - if everything has reverb on it, then the piano won't stand out. Unless it's the only instrument without it.
Bassline - the most difficult area for anyone to mix. Could be a number of things.
Have you got a kick that's competing in the same frequencies as some bassline notes? If so, then roll off some of that Eq from the kick. Also basscut everything else - especially pads - pads can have a sizeable bottom end, and you don't need sub100Hz on a pad. In fact consider cutting bass from anything that is synthesized with a lowpass filter.
Bassline might need boosting somewhere - you just have to experiment. Or you could try different expression with the bassline - play the weedy notes louder, or set the bassline to filter differently - maybe the lower it plays, it should actually boost the filter instead of cut - play with the filter tracking - that can help.
Or, yes, you could compress the bassline - but then be aware that it will also make it more powerful in all frequency bands - especially problem areas such as the boomy 150-200Hz or the boxy 300Hz areas. And it will then also compete more with any kicks.
Another trick is to try out sidechained compressors - key the bassline with the kick: then the compressor will subtly drop the volume of the bassline when the kick sounds; less competition that way.
Even really odd things like transposing might help - some basslines don't need to be really deep. I used to be a bugger for trying to get every bassline thundering away at low octaves. When I transposed some of them up an octave, they actually sounded clearer but still bassy if it was a decent bass patch.
And it could be a whole load of other things too. But Pads are generally always a problematic area that need toning down or Eq cutting in some areas. And if you want a bright piano, then don't have bright drums.
All worth a try - might not work, but who knows?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 178 posts since 10 Sep, 2004 from Sheffield. UK.
Wow, thanks Kritikon. Some really good pointers there, and I have printed that out to guide me. Just one thing to ask - something that I mentioned at the start of this thread. I hear a lot of talk about cutting and boosting at this and that frequency. What I need is a tool that will TELL me at what frequency my instruments sit at. Can you recommend a tool for this?
Finally, I have heard about a vsti that can match an eq sweep from another piece of music. Does anyone know what vsti this is? And is it any good?
Finally, I have heard about a vsti that can match an eq sweep from another piece of music. Does anyone know what vsti this is? And is it any good?
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- KVRAF
- 8705 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
A spectral analyser can help - Voxengo Span is good, also Inspector from ElemantalAudio. But they only give you an idea - some sounds are so full that an analyser may not help much. As mentioned earlier by someone, a good way of finding a frequency hotspot is by using an Eq boost (maybe 1/2 or full octave bandwidth) and boost it up really hard - then sweep the frequency around slowly. There will be a frequency at which it really grates or it particularly displays the character of the sound that you like - this is its strong frequency area. You can do that with an analyser, and even a simple sound might show the main frequency and a series of harmonics going up in ever diminishing steps - but it may not actually be the main frequency on its own that is your problem area. So use your ears rather than a visual tool.
Just make a mental note of the frequencies you find that way - eventually you get an idea of what types of sound are in what areas.
And do the same with Eq cuts - if you suspect 2 sounds are competing for space, but you really like sound A and don't want to muck around with it, then do a sever Eq cut of 1/2 - 1 octave width on sound B and slowly sweep the frequency. Once you get past the main frequency, you'll likely find that the Eq cut doesn't radically affect the nature of sound B so much, but at a certain point or range, you'll notice other sounds becoming clearer. Say as you sweep past 600-900HZ the snares might become more noticeable, past 2000-4000HZ the vocals might shine a little more or whatever. You'll find a frequency where sound A suddenly is alot clearer, but sound B is still close enough to the original to be OK.
Personally I prefer to do it the second way - Eq cutting is always less destructive to a mix than boosting - it also means there's more room to put in other instruments if you wanted to. More room also means more room to add FX if you want. But it's horses for courses - I used to work with someone who used what I thought was horrific amounts of boost on too many channels - but he actually got good results. But even he did the same trick with Eq boosting and cutting to find the sweet spots.
Just make a mental note of the frequencies you find that way - eventually you get an idea of what types of sound are in what areas.
And do the same with Eq cuts - if you suspect 2 sounds are competing for space, but you really like sound A and don't want to muck around with it, then do a sever Eq cut of 1/2 - 1 octave width on sound B and slowly sweep the frequency. Once you get past the main frequency, you'll likely find that the Eq cut doesn't radically affect the nature of sound B so much, but at a certain point or range, you'll notice other sounds becoming clearer. Say as you sweep past 600-900HZ the snares might become more noticeable, past 2000-4000HZ the vocals might shine a little more or whatever. You'll find a frequency where sound A suddenly is alot clearer, but sound B is still close enough to the original to be OK.
Personally I prefer to do it the second way - Eq cutting is always less destructive to a mix than boosting - it also means there's more room to put in other instruments if you wanted to. More room also means more room to add FX if you want. But it's horses for courses - I used to work with someone who used what I thought was horrific amounts of boost on too many channels - but he actually got good results. But even he did the same trick with Eq boosting and cutting to find the sweet spots.
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- KVRAF
- 8705 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
And as a total aside...ancoats - is that where you come from? Just that I used to live in Manchester, and Ancoats was a place where you didn't go after dark. Unless, of course, it's been yuppified by now.