Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[Gregorius]

No, it doesn't mean you can't use the presets, it means you can't use the melodies they composed for the presets, the ones that are included in arpeggios, or sequences, and make money with it. You must consider these melodies as demos.

This would be really snitchy and a big kick in the ass for every buyer of their Avenger, Phalanx & Nexus expansions... But I heard songs that used their construction kits, vocals, presets unchanged and nothing happened.

But even if thay say what they meant, in the end it is the written form that matters in a court.

[DJErmac]

No, it doesn't mean you can't use the presets, it means you can't use the melodies they composed for the presets, the ones that are included in arpeggios, or sequences, and make money with it. You must consider these melodies as demos.

u sure? i remember prodigy using a presets from sylenth1

Maybe they don't care.

I would never use a pre-recorded melody and try to sell it, I find it 100% logical since you didn't compose it. If you like some Avenger arp melody that much, just do like every clever plagiarism : make a very close copy.

[DJErmac]

(...)But I heard songs that used their construction kits, vocals, presets unchanged and nothing happened.

Since they do not allow this, something tells me they haven't heard those songs...

[MikeCallon]

@msvs Care to shed some light over this?

Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization:
- commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved.

I understand all Arps, Sequences, Basslines, Vox presets (Avenger/Phalanx), AR presets and SQ (Nexus) and all the Bass Loops, Synth Loops, Melody Loops (Vengeance packs) are forbidden to use in song made with the purpose of being comercially released?

Manuel, I'd like to hear something from you on this.

+1

What would be the point in buying presets within an Arp category if you can't use them

[DJErmac]

They show you the final render, what you get exactly with full FX ! All you have to do is change the melody and you're good to go !

[Amram]

Back on topic:

@msvs Care to shed some light over this?

Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization:
- commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved.

I understand all Arps, Sequences, Basslines, Vox presets (Avenger/Phalanx), AR presets and SQ (Nexus) and all the Bass Loops, Synth Loops, Melody Loops (Vengeance packs) are forbidden to use in song made with the purpose of being comercially released?

This is stealing.
I think someone need to take those packs and throw it in their face.

[Soundplex]

Would indeed be a hell of a scam plot twist

[sircuit]

If you like some Avenger arp melody that much, just do like every clever plagiarism : make a very close copy.

Well, the licensing terms and conditions are identical for Nexus, Vengeance sample packs and Avenger. I don't know if you are aware, but you can't easily make a "close" copy of new Nexus arp presets (many of them are not using the onboard arpeggiator anymore, the arp is running hidden "behind the scene") or new sequences (same thing, embedded arps in the sound). Then you have the wav melody loops, chopping them and changing pitches is a big pita (also defeats the purpose of buying them in the first place). Also, these categories are not at all presented as being "demos" (and with an appropriate warning sign - given the licensing terms), quite the contrary their number is clearly presented on every product's index of contents. Then construction kits (which I never buy because I consider "too much"): what's the point of buying them if they can't be used commercially?

Perhaps different licensing terms for different kind of releases (kits, sample packs, preset packs) is needed.

Also, "commercial" songs are not only the ones for beatport. We have comercials, tv/vlog/stock background music etc. where an arp preset in a 2-minutes transition song isn't a big deal (no one said ever "hey, that melody loop at 14:33 in Jersey Shore was in Nexus2's Dance Vol.3", but it suddenly may be a problem, given these written licensing terms (even though Vengeance/reFX have a "relaxed" attitude when it comes to them).

Anyway, I just want a clarification, then it's up to me, as a buyer, to decide if the effort needed in modifying the respective loops worth the money spent on the packs themselves.

[Ryan99]

When you pay 70$ a preset pack, I find it hard to believe that you can’t use any preset for your compositions.

[DJErmac]

Also, these categories are not at all presented as being "demos" (and with an appropriate warning sign - given the licensing terms), quite the contrary their number is clearly presented on every product's index of contents.

No need for a sign : "warning : since you did not compose this melody, you should not make people believe you composed this melody by selling it under you name". Of course those melodies are here to show you what you can get, you're not supposed to use them commercially and you HAVE to make new melodies if you want to use the preset. If the melody can't be modified, congratulations, you're f*cked. Don't buy products where you can't modify melodies if you want to sell your music !

[msvs]

Avenger and especially Arps are not meant. A "melody" furthermore is only a melody you can "whistle". Not a 16th arp pattern, up down patterns or simple chord progressions, rhythmic structures in general are not melody. So what 99% of the arps consist of. Furthermore in an arp, the result depends on which notes YOU play. What is meant are fixed melodies and vocals in packs. Only 1 person can be the composer for a melody, not several hundreds, so we keep the compositino rights at us. For example we have the cases everyday, that on youtube our own audio demos are reported by those youtube collect bots, because someone rebuilt his song 1:1 like in the demos and releases it. They had 5mins of work to release a song and then labels claim the composition for themselves. We even had cases, where the artist not even used the loops, he used the complete audio demos directly and released on itunes. Btw. you can easily create your own stuff by effecting, chopping, re-arranging or layering.

[sircuit]

If the melody can't be modified, congratulations, you're f*cked. Don't buy products where you can't modify melodies if you want to sell your music !

What you say may make sense in a world where no dev sells melody packs and vocal packs royalty free. You may be surprised to find out that there are developers that sell in a legal way melodies and vocal packs royalty free.

If a pack is only partial royalty free it should be advertise as it really is. Or offending content not to be inside the pack in the first place.

Msvs: Other labels can sell royalty free content (including melodies and vocals nad lyrics), your explanation sounds like rather trying to protect your youtube demos.

Edit: I don’t have a problem with the fact that some content is not royalty free, rather with the fact that a pack includes mixed content in terms of licensing and they are not split accordingly. What’s happening if I’m a good beatboxer and I’m able to whistle all the arps? I can whistle tech house percussion loops ffs and this is the only reference to find out which content is royalty free and which is not?

[HSum]

Avenger and especially Arps are not meant. A "melody" furthermore is only a melody you can "whistle". Not a 16th arp pattern, up down patterns or simple chord progressions, rhythmic structures in general are not melody. So what 99% of the arps consist of. Furthermore in an arp, the result depends on which notes YOU play. What is meant are fixed melodies and vocals in packs. Only 1 person can be the composer for a melody, not several hundreds, so we keep the compositino rights at us. For example we have the cases everyday, that on youtube our own audio demos are reported by those youtube collect bots, because someone rebuilt his song 1:1 like in the demos and releases it. They had 5mins of work to release a song and then labels claim the composition for themselves. We even had cases, where the artist not even used the loops, he used the complete audio demos directly and released on itunes. Btw. you can easily create your own stuff by effecting, chopping, re-arranging or layering.

I agree with sircuit. It still smells a bit fishy to me. May I ask some questions about pratical examples - in all situations the question is: can I legally release a commercial track or tv spot with it?

a) Avenger Factory Content - AR Hiphop Sines. A track only playing this unaltered arp sequence at C and a kick/clap beat beneath it?
b) Avenger Factory Content - SQ Classic Dance 2. I'd like to use it like it is and just play a melody above.
c) VEC1 Special Sounds 02 TuneUp G & Sound 03 TuneUp G. I made a track using both files in it.
d) VTS3 Ants Kit has a great melody so I'll use the wet version in a track.
e) I built whole mix-in parts with loops & phrases from the Vocal Essentials 1 and 2 packs.
f) The Total Dance Sounds 2 (Vocals) looked promising. One kit catched me "Out Of My Mind". My track would contain the vocal Hook.
g) The melody loops from the Essential Dubstep pack.

Thanks in advance for clarification.

[DJErmac]

If the melody can't be modified, congratulations, you're f*cked. Don't buy products where you can't modify melodies if you want to sell your music !

(...) You may be surprised to find out that there are developers that sell in a legal way melodies and vocal packs royalty free.

Yes, I know there are some examples, you're totally right about this, and it makes no sense to me.

[noiseboyuk]

*cough Native Instruments Expansions cough*

Nexus is a preset machine. You know it going in. When you then find you can't actually legally use all the presets, I'm not sure what that leaves.

This really needs addressing. Reselling as samples / loops of course is easily and fairly prohibited. But finding out you can't actually use, say, a factory vocal sample is crazy. How much modification makes it usable? Reverb? Pitch shifting by note? Envelope? A trance gate? Granular? Do we have to write to you every time seeking clarification?

I've been a vocal fan of Avenger and Nexus for a long time. I've released little Avenger expansions and everything. This is the first thing to really make me think I may have backed the wrong horse. Not that I want to hold down a note on an SQ patch and release it as my own creative masterwork, but I buy music making tools to make music as I see fit. I don't want to go through some kind of ludicrous legal minefield every time I call up a sample or change a patch.

Manuel - sorry, this isn't good enough. There are less stupidly restrictive solutions to the admittedly crazy problem of people claiming a patch melody as their own.