ST 2 LE and single instance limitation too limited!!!

[BitFlipper]

OK,

I understand the single instance limitation of SampleTank 2 LE and why it is done. But I just ran into a situation where I think it is just too restrictive, even for a "light" version.

The way I like to work in Sonar 3 PE is as follows:

I have my main song. There is one instance of ST2 LE and everything is groovy. I also like to create "favorites" songs, each one having a list of all my favorite instrument patches. For instance, while creating a song, I like to load up one of these templates songs, lets say "Guitars". This contains tracks with pre-defined guitar instruments, each with my favorite guitar and it's associated VST effects. Since I cannot store VST effects in a ST2 LE preset, I need to store the instrument with its track that contains the VST effects and settings as an uber preset.

So I load the second Guitar "song" and go through the list of guitars till I find one I like to use in my main song by recreating the same setup in my main song's tracks. Since Sonar allows multiple songs to be open at once this is no problem. Except ST2 LE does not allow this because it does not limit a single instance to one song, but globally to one instance, period. Since I can only have one song have the focus in Sonar at any one point I don't see why this should be limited in this way. Even if I have 20 songs open at once in Sonar I can still only play one at a time. Why is this one instance limit so severe, and is there a way around this (other than upgrading to the full version)?

Edit: I just thought of another case where this limitation would be way too dibilitating... I often load up older songs while working on newer songs to either lift a tune, chord progression, effect chain etc. This way I can switch between two songs and duplicate things I liked in the 1st one. With the ST2 LE one global instance limitation it means that capability goes straight out the window. So much for Multiple Document Interface in Sonar!!! . So far I have not created full songs using ST2 LE but now I'm starting to get second thoughts about using ST2 LE at all as I will run into this down the line.

BitFlipper

[DrApostropheX]

Yeah, I can certainly appreciate the one-instance limitation, but to be perfectly honest, it is rather annoying. Considering that it's already (appropriately) limited compared to the full version of SampleTank (no ability to select synthesis type, no ability to modify all effects slots, no ability to save/load effect presets), the one-instance limitation seems a little strict (no matter how much I might like staring at that cool spinning fan).

If I used ST2LE for anything other than the StudioDrums Capsule, I might be more concerned about it. I can't say that's what's keeping me from getting Acoustic Guitar Capsule or Bass Capsule (though it would be really cool if, if you had multiple modules, you could use the multiple instances).

[Squids]

For the price of the library you get this player for free practically. It gives you a 16 channel, 256 voice ST playback module with 32 effects and some basic easy editing. However, the technology only exists if people are also getting the full version (where LE was derived from). So, at a certain point there has to be good reasons to upgrade otherwise the model doesn't work. Depending on how one works with it that urgency may be there more than others.

There are a variety of upgrade options on www.esoundz.com There are actually a lot of good reasons to upgrade really, not just for the additional instances.

[BitFlipper]

It is unfortunate that the solution to my problem comes down to "pay an additional $200". Originally I wanted to get a good library for Kontakt and my initial purchase was going to be Sonic Station, but I was directed to the Sonic Synth + Everything bundle, and I ended up paying over $200 for that. Here was my original request for a good library:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Had I known how much the ST2 LE limitations really impacted it as an actual useful sample player, I would not have gone that way, but would have opted for the Sonic Station library and used Kontakt to play it back, with zero of these limitations.

Well I guess hindsight is 20/20 and I'll need to end up paying over $400 when all I wanted was a functional, good library.

Damn...

BitFlipper

[Squids]

If all you wanted was a library then perhaps Sonic Station was the better choice. Although there is a cross-grade from Sonic Synth 1 to Sonic Station as well which is fairly cheap (I forget what it is but just talk to dan@esoundz.com and he'll hook it up for you).

Anyway, the group buy was $109. for a lot of sounds in ST format. The engine only upgrade is $199. on www.esoundz.com (although for $30 more you can just get ST2 L which has 4 discs of sounds too) and get the full features of the engine without the sounds (because you can use the ones you got from the group buy). That is more like $308. But, hey, that's not such a bad deal at all. You could go the cheaper route and get Sonic Station as a cross-grade and STILL have the good group buy deal with ST2 LE and get the full engine when you want to. For one thing, it will do things differently than Kontakt. It's nice to have both eventually anyway.

The specs were available for ST2 LE. But, perhaps once you are working with it you may realize these things. The ST2 FREE that is out is also limited to one instance. People can see what that is like before they buy. It depends on how you work with it. Most people can just use LE as a multi-timbral sound module for 16 parts and perhaps that is enough for now but if not then they qualify for a variety of discounted upgrades to the full version.

[beltrom]

In a sense you can view it more as a Sonar "problem" than a ST2LE one. If Sonar allowed softsynths to exist as free entities and just called them from the songs (much as a real synthrack) it could be workable. You'd loose some benefits having ONLY that way of working though. So I guess the best would be to have both choices. Kind of a choice between "local and global" DXi/VSTi instances. And synths with this ST2LE-limitation preferably being global.

[BitFlipper]

Squids wrote:

Anyway, the group buy was $109. for a lot of sounds in ST format.

As I said in my initial post, I paid for the Everything option, which came in at just over $200 total. This was how much I said I initially wanted to spend on the sample library when I first asked for a library recommendation here on KVR. Yes, it's not a bad deal, but when I take into account that as is, that $200 did not really buy me a workable sample library as the limitations in ST2 LE are really starting to present all sorts of problems for me. From the inability to pan individual drum samples (even the accoustic kits have a lot of samples panned dead-center), to this global one-instance limitation (which basically breaks Sonar's MDI feature), to other things I don't want to go into now.

In reality I would have needed to spend over $400 to get this working in a way that doesn't put unreasonable limits on me. On paper ST2 LE looks good, but when you start using it you run into problems.

Yes, it's a great library of sounds, and if I was able to export those sounds to Kontakt I would have been really happy, but they are now stuck in ST2 LE.

Sorry, I just need to vent. My quest to find a workable library for $200 has failed.

Anyway, I guess now I have to go and work on some workarounds...

BitFlipper

[BitFlipper]

In a sense you can view it more as a Sonar "problem" than a ST2LE one. If Sonar allowed softsynths to exist as free entities and just called them from the songs (much as a real synthrack) it could be workable. You'd loose some benefits having ONLY that way of working though. So I guess the best would be to have both choices. Kind of a choice between "local and global" DXi/VSTi instances. And synths with this ST2LE-limitation preferably being global.

I don't see how this is a Sonar problem. There are different ways to determine if other instances of a program/DLL etc are already running. Sonar just tells the plugin to load a new instance every time the user adds one to a track. After that it's up to the plugin to do whatever it likes. In the case of ST2 LE it checks for previous instances of itself, and presents the "back" of the unit if it detects a previous instance. I'm sure it's possible to check the song name, etc to determine if it's in the same song or a different song. The title of ST2 LE window contains the song name. If it's a different song, it could go ahead and load a new, working instance. Instead it does a global check, which causes the problem I describe.

So this is not a Sonar problem. There's nothing wrong with the way Sonar handles plugins. Sonar has no control over what plugins do after they are loaded.

BitFlipper

[beltrom]

I said "in a sense" and used quotes around problem thinking that would make my view clear.

I'm a long time Cakewalk user and love it. So I'm not trying to pin something on them. I don't know how other hosts handles this and to me it's not a big deal because I don't have your workflow.

My point was that if hosts (in this case Sonar) allowed VSTi/DXi to be accessible from multiple works the problem with VSTi's/DXi's that only allow one instance would be smaller. As there obviously are those DXi's and VSTi's it would be a handy feature for some people I imagine.

Not a solution to your problem, not trying to tell you not to be annoyed at Sampletank, just an observation that's valid in context. And maybe one of the sequencer giants could pick up on it, 'cause I think it would be a pretty easy feature to add.

[Squids]

I said "in a sense" and used quotes around problem thinking that would make my view clear.

I'm a long time Cakewalk user and love it. So I'm not trying to pin something on them. I don't know how other hosts handles this and to me it's not a big deal because I don't have your workflow.

My point was that if hosts (in this case Sonar) allowed VSTi/DXi to be accessible from multiple works the problem with VSTi's/DXi's that only allow one instance would be smaller. As there obviously are those DXi's and VSTi's it would be a handy feature for some people I imagine.

Not a solution to your problem, not trying to tell you not to be annoyed at Sampletank, just an observation that's valid in context. And maybe one of the sequencer giants could pick up on it, 'cause I think it would be a pretty easy feature to add.

I agree.

BitFlipper, it sounds to me like Sonic Station and Sonik Capsules is the route you should have gone to have the most flexibility especially for drum panning as well. Just talk to Dan at esoundz. He'll work something out for you.

As for ST2 LE's limitations, they are different depending on how one and/or one's sequencer allows one to work with it. If one can just use the single instance with its 16 channels then I think the value is being taken advantage of well considering that it is practically thrown in for FREE when you pay the price of a library. Also, considering that ST2 XL costs $499. , the cost of the ugprade to get the full engine really isn't that bad. I understand it is just more than you were planning to spend.

We'll figure something out. Realistically, you would not have otherwise been able to get 10 discs of sounds for that price any other way. But, you could have gotten maybe up to 3 discs of sounds going the Sonic Station route. You'd have "some" drums but not nearly what you'd have with the "Acoustic Drums" library. Of course you could get "Studio Drums Capsule" for that and be majorly stoked on what it offers in Kontakt, Battery and ST (and comes with an ST2 LE as well). So, Sonik Station + Studio Drums Capsule is something like $260. at the current esoundz discounted price (regular price is $348. for the two). That is 4 discs for $260 which isn't as low as 10 discs for $200 but it is still a very nice set up. Dan can cross-grade you to that for less though if you want to go that route from this point. You might end up with 14 discs of sounds (4 of which can also be used in Kontakt) for around $350. or so (with the cross-grade discount).

No matter how you slice it though, getting at least just a drum library and a workstation plug-in is likely going to cost more than $200. The only reason this was that low was because of an enormous group buy. But, the flip side (npi) is that it doesn't give us the same flexibility to find OTHER things that have the same VFM as a group buy but work different ways! Sometimes a group buy or a blow out deal or any drastic discounted bundle has that unique factor. In order to find something else we have to go back to regular non- group buy discounted prices or work with cross-grade discounts, ePointz, eRewardz... these are the realistic parameters we have to work with to try to make people happy.

Anyway, as usual I am saying too much (because I care) but each person's needs are best handled directly with esoundz customer support/sales staff. It is their job to figure out how to make you a happy customer. Try the general email so that the dept sees it: sales@esoundz.com and make sure you put your KVR nick so we know it is Bit Flipper. Or you can call this week 954 846 9447.

[beltrom]

Squids, is this the reason the earlier Sampletank LE allowed 4 instances, but was limited in other ways? I'm happier with the limitation to one (more powerful) instance in 2LE, just curious.

[BitFlipper]

Thank you Squids for always being so patient. I know I am a PITA, sorry. I guess I could have paid more attention to the limitations in ST2 LE and determined if it will be workable for me before I purchased it. And I do agree with you that I did get an awesome amount of quality sounds for the $200 I paid.

I will contact Dan and see what my upgrade/crossgrade options are.

OK, I will stop being annoying now, lol...

BitFlipper

[asseca]

ST2 LE has a limitation of 1 instance PER APPLICATION.

If you run 3 VSTi hosts you CAN open 1 instance of ST2 LE in each VSTi host.

[BitFlipper]

ST2 LE has a limitation of 1 instance PER APPLICATION.

If you run 3 VSTi hosts you CAN open 1 instance of ST2 LE in each VSTi host.

Except as far as I know, you can only run one instance of Sonar at a time. So I guess if you look at it like that, then this is partially Sonar's fault.

BitFlipper

[Bassballjg]

ST2 LE has a limitation of 1 instance PER APPLICATION.

If you run 3 VSTi hosts you CAN open 1 instance of ST2 LE in each VSTi host.

Except as far as I know, you can only run one instance of Sonar at a time. So I guess if you look at it like that, then this is partially Sonar's fault.

BitFlipper

I don't see this as anyone's "fault",no malice or negligence is involved here.I don't have your problem, but I do sympathize once I see what you mean.I just don't work like that.

The implication of a one instance/one host idea was the you could open the DXI of LE in Sonar,and then the VST in the VSTi mode of Chainer,or some such.I have just tried this,however and it didn't work.Sorry.

Good luck with your crossgrade and I hope that you get to be where you need to be very soon and with a minimum of further trouble.