KVR Audio

greedy.mf · Post by **greedy.mf** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:30 am

Hello, KVR.

Happy Live 9 Suite + Push 2 user here. Loving pretty much everything of it, if not the mixer for mixing duties. For production it is ok. Not looking for a direct replacement, rather for augmentation of some sort.

There is a sale for upgrade to Reason 10 for $99. I've got Reason Limited bundled with Korg controller so I'm qualified for update.

I downloaded the demo with two demo songs, browsed with it for couple of hours.
Mixer is very cool, SSL emulation with all controls neatly laid out. Granular synth is cool too.
All looks fun and colourful, but several things put me off. Like rack clutter for instance. UI for most of rack devices are very tiny, like from VGA era. Yeah, it feels dated overall.
Some reviewers call it intuitive, but i didn't find it as such.

So wonder if there is more than meets the eye and I didn't get it yet or Reason philosophy just isn't for me?
How practical is rewiring Reason to Live?
Does someone mix just the audio with Reason?
Are there any controller surfaces with good integration for Reason?

ATS · Post by **ATS** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:03 am

I tried the demo for like 15 minutes and it didn't click with me at all. I normally use Studio One. Like you I am still wondering if I want it though

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:37 am

greedy.mf wrote:...several things put me off. Like rack clutter for instance. UI for most of rack devices are very tiny, like from VGA era. Yeah, it feels dated overall.
Some reviewers call it intuitive, but i didn't find it as such.

If you don't get excited with the cables and manual routing / patching, don't find the devices appealing visually (and you're right about the VGA era resolution) and don't find it intuitive - then I'd say DON'T BUY it. You'll only get frustrated. It's just not for everybody.

quincy · Post by **quincy** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:46 am

My humble opinion (and I don't think it's controversial) is that it's actually very capable in terms of sound design and you can get very creative with the modularity. The recent synths are pretty decent and it's rock solid if you only use included devices and RE. I can't comment on VST.

Unfortunately the sequencer is painful by comparison to most other DAWs but obviously that's subjective. I'm always impressed with what you can do in the rack with interesting routings and the included "creative" effects etc but actually trying to work in the sequencer always puts me off after the first 10 minutes. Especially if you use a keyboard and mouse like I do - it's just awful. You can only view the one track in the timeline whilst editing MIDI or audio, the piano roll is basic, can't change grid with shortcuts, can't edit multiple clips etc. These things are commonplace now so it feels very dated by comparison.

I keep trying it with other DAW for rewire but my general conclusion is that it isn't worth the hassle. But it's a genuine shame because it's rock solid and the instruments and effects keep getting better.

However - if the rewire from Ableton works for you then it's a lot of sound design fun for the current deal price. And I believe that there is pretty good support for control surfaces and keyboards out of the box.

dukeitch · Post by **dukeitch** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:57 am

Hello there.

I'm seconding a lot of what quiny has posted while I was typing away:

I'm kinda between the worlds here. If it clicks with you, Reason's rack can work wonders for designing creative sounds; the main point here is that you can connect devices to each other in a kind of modular way. Like using an envelope from one synth to modulate a parameter on another synth. In that respect, nothing (not taking into consideration environments like Max/MSP, Reaktor, bidule etc.) beats Reason in speed and fun. Plus now that Reason works with vsts, it becomes a modular powerhouse where you can connect LFOs and pattern devices to parameters in, say, Softube Modular. No other sequencer or DAW can do things like that afaik (bitwig?). I just really wish Reason had a more non-linear approach when it comes to the timeline, that's where Ableton Live comes in for me. Rewiring and controlling Reason devices from Live is absolutely doable and pretty easy, but afaik Push is very limited in Rewire mode, and Reason can't work with vsts in Rewire mode. What I do is using Ableton Link to sync Reason and Ableton and get the best of both worlds. If you're into creative sound design, I'd consider giving it another go. The sequencer can be a pain in the ass if you're used to something like Logic, but Mixing with the SSL is pretty fun.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm

quincy wrote:My humble opinion (and I don't think it's controversial) is that it's actually very capable in terms of sound design and you can get very creative with the modularity

True, but there's nothing in Reason that you can't do in Live (Suite) or Bitwig and you can get the same results there much quicker, because you don't have to manually patch stuff, create channels, re-patch if you change the order or add something in the middle, split and merge audio & CV using spiders and/or mixers, etc.

Obviously - like I said - if you find this "manual" labour satisfying & fun (like I do), then by all means go and buy Reason. If you find it annoying, then avoid it.

quincy wrote:Unfortunately the sequencer is painful by comparison to most other DAWs but obviously that's subjective. I'm always impressed with what you can do in the rack with interesting routings and the included "creative" effects etc but actually trying to work in the sequencer always puts me off after the first 10 minutes. Especially if you use a keyboard and mouse like I do - it's just awful. You can only the one track in the timeline whilst editing MIDI or audio, the piano roll is basic, can't change grid with shortcuts, can't edit multiple clips etc. These things are commonplace now so it feels very dated by comparison.

This I agree with, but only partially - sure, there are issues you mentioned + others (like every device gets its own track when automated, no folders, awkward playhead management), BUT on the other hand there are some brilliant things there, missing in Live or Bitwig:
- multiple parallel MIDI lanes per track,
- automation clips that you can edit like other clips (cut, stretch, reverse, etc.)
- separate muting of MIDI & automation lanes,
- in-clip audio pitch editing (like Molodyne),
- great audio comping,
- very extensive MIDI editor panel (F8),
- blocks mode (for creating repetitive segments, linked across the project),

Like with any other DAW, you need to like the strengths and be able to get over some weaknesses

quincy · Post by **quincy** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:46 pm

antic604 wrote:Like with any other DAW, you need to like the strengths and be able to get over some weaknesses

Of course, 100% agreed. Use whatever you enjoy and whatever makes you happy and productive. I can't stand all the stupid DAW wars crap around here - don't understand why everyone seems to need validation about whatever software they use.

Who cares what other people use - each just do what works for yourself!

Robmobius · Post by **Robmobius** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:03 pm

I'm a happy Abe user.

I've just upgraded from Reason 1 to 10. I originally stopped using Reason years ago. But I thought 10 looked pretty cool and it has VST support.

I'm glad I did, I think it has some fantastic tools and some great sonic devices with plenty of character. I'm finding the routing a little weird and cumbersome. Mainly because I'm so used to not having to route stuff. But it's part of the charm...

I've got to say I'm having an absolute blast playing with Thor, Europa, and all the other cool gear.

It's got its quirks and it's not quite as easy to use as Abe, but for me, I can definitely see the enormous potential it has. I also dipped my toes into some Rack Extensions (or 'Crack' Extensions - My wallet will be shrinking!!). But it's a tad daunting because there's so much available.

Now I just have to try and figure out how to rewire the 'ting into Ableton.

Incidentally, some of the major DnB heads still love Reason for Bass and sound design. Som if it's good enough for them!

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:16 pm

quincy wrote:
antic604 wrote:Who cares what other people use - each just do what works for yourself!

However, OP asks about whether he'll have use for Reason next to Live and - based on his comments - I'd say it is not for him. And that has nothing to do with "DAW wars" just my assessment of his preferences.

ckoe · Post by **ckoe** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:20 pm

Just try the demo of Reason and you will love it or not. I'm switched from a journey of DAWs(Live, Bitwig, Reaper, Cubase) to Reason10 shortly and will never go back. I must admit that I've used Reason 13 years ago. Songs from this area works without any adjustments, that's very impressive. Sure the GUI needs a rework but I think propellerhead have this on there roadmap. For me that's no problem cause I use only fullHD. Another gem is the very low cpu usage of Reason.

EnochLight · Post by **EnochLight** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:34 pm

antic604 wrote:
greedy.mf wrote:...several things put me off. Like rack clutter for instance. UI for most of rack devices are very tiny, like from VGA era. Yeah, it feels dated overall.
Some reviewers call it intuitive, but i didn't find it as such.
If you don't get excited with the cables and manual routing / patching, don't find the devices appealing visually (and you're right about the VGA era resolution) and don't find it intuitive - then I'd say DON'T BUY it. You'll only get frustrated. It's just not for everybody.

This, x1000 - antic604 is spot on. I'm on Reason 10 as well as Studio One 3.5, and used Live for less than a year. All 3 are very different workflows, but Reason is clearly the most "different".

If the rack, cables/routing, and smaller graphics put you off, you won't benefit from it really.

That said, the demo is fully functional - you can even save your work (just not open saved projects). Play with it and see if it inspires you to actually write. If it does, you might be onto something. But if you aren't inspired, definitely skip it.

greedy.mf · Post by **greedy.mf** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:46 pm

I want to thank all fellows who contributed to the thread.
I decided to pass on the offer and save the money for Live 10 upgrade. Makes more sense as I see it.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:54 pm

greedy.mf wrote:I want to thank all fellows who contributed to the thread.
I decided to pass on the offer and save the money for Live 10 upgrade. Makes more sense as I see it.

Good choice... Reason cannot do anything you cannot do in Live. It is another big layer of complexity added to an already complex software.

Distorted Horizon · Post by **Distorted Horizon** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:09 pm

R10 is a great DAW and sound design tool.. But if you're only looking for a DAW where you mix your song, I'd maybe turn my eyes to either Harrison Mixbus or Reaper.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm

I've been thinking about it as well, when there was a great offer for Reason 9.5 in the Sell & buy forum here, but, nah... i wouldn't use it much anyway, and, in the words of a well known member of this forum, it's GUI is a "trainwreck" anyway.

Seriously, i don't like to what Reason has evolved since version 5. It used to be a small, easy all-in-one software, which was even fun and easy for students to learn and use, and now, it is a feature monster, which just doesn't fit in the compact suit it wore in the beginning. Feel free to disagree, just my opinion, but, for me, it's just not attractive anymore, and even less so since it opened itself up to VST.

Reason 10. Would it be of use for Live 9 user?