KVR Audio

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:28 am

How many tracks is enough ?

How many tracks means overkill ?

At what point does too many tracks kill inspiration and become impractical ?

How much does the type of music you make affect track count ?

Is less more ?

Distorted Horizon · Post by **Distorted Horizon** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:40 am

Search -> How many tracks =

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=350190

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=189004

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=127282

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77136

budweiser · Post by **budweiser** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:43 am

Hmmm... between not enough and too much.

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:02 am

Distorted Horizon wrote:Search -> How many tracks =

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=350190

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=189004

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=127282

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77136

Two of those threads from 2005 - 2006 relate to how many tracks a computer could handle.

Here we are in 2018 and huge track counts are possible at 24 bit.

My question is more related to the question of whether this is a good thing or not.

Does practically infinite synth sounds and track count = better music ?

ariston · Post by **ariston** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:13 am

It depends on a lot of things... the type of music you make, how much you fret the little details, etc.

I have what you might call a philosophy regarding recording. For one, I like being a bit sceptical of technological advancement, and also being wary of the direction in which tech tends to push us. Thanks to technology, we now have the ability to use near-unlimited tracks. Rewind back about fifty years, and you'd have to make do with maybe 4 tracks, if you were lucky. Later on, 24 and 48 track studios became the norm. The advantage was a greater degree of fidelity, being able to record and mix a drum kit in fine detail, for example. One of the drawbacks of this was that studio recordings became ever more "contrived", to the point where the live sound of 5 people in a room playing their instruments began to sound "weird" to Joe Average who'd become accustomed to the studio norm of pristine, clinical recording and mixing. Overdubs and replacements made things more "perfect", but also effectively de-humanized the performances. Look at the charts today: filled with generic, perfectly-produced and perfectly forgettable soundbites.

When I record and mix, I try to keep in the frame of mind of "a small group of people playing together in a room". The upshot is that I rarely use more than 10-15 tracks. I like to mix drums as a whole, getting the sounds "right" (mix-ready) before I mix, to get a cohesive feel. I try to make every track meaningful, in the sense of "adding something to the whole". I don't like to layer synths, again with the idea of a keyboard player having only two hands. A big influence here was Tony Banks - he could make two synths sound like a f**king orchestra, because he was so damn smart in both the sounds he used and in what he was actually playing. I ruthlessly throw out tracks that are just filler.

Just because you have the tools at your disposal, doesn't mean you HAVE to use them. Think about having a whole orchestra. Brilliant! But does that really mean you need to utilize every player in that orchestra? Why not just use the ones necessary for you to make your artistic statement? And the advantage of virtual orchestras is that you don't have to worry about the tuba player goofing off in the background because he's bored.

The big idea behind this philosophy is: is the composition strong enough to hold up when played on a guitar, or piano? If not, then 100 overdubs won't save it.

Anyways, that's my POV. No rules without exceptions, though: sometimes, overdubbing the hell out of things can be an art-form in itself. Phil Spector did some amazing stuff. There's a part on Mike Oldfield's Hergest Ridge where he purportedly overdubbed 90 guitars (!).

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:04 pm

ariston wrote:It depends on a lot of things... the type of music you make, how much you fret the little details, etc.

I have what you might call a philosophy regarding recording. For one, I like being a bit sceptical of technological advancement, and also being wary of the direction in which tech tends to push us. Thanks to technology, we now have the ability to use near-unlimited tracks. Rewind back about fifty years, and you'd have to make do with maybe 4 tracks, if you were lucky. Later on, 24 and 48 track studios became the norm. The advantage was a greater degree of fidelity, being able to record and mix a drum kit in fine detail, for example. One of the drawbacks of this was that studio recordings became ever more "contrived", to the point where the live sound of 5 people in a room playing their instruments began to sound "weird" to Joe Average who'd become accustomed to the studio norm of pristine, clinical recording and mixing. Overdubs and replacements made things more "perfect", but also effectively de-humanized the performances. Look at the charts today: filled with generic, perfectly-produced and perfectly forgettable soundbites.

When I record and mix, I try to keep in the frame of mind of "a small group of people playing together in a room". The upshot is that I rarely use more than 10-15 tracks. I like to mix drums as a whole, getting the sounds "right" (mix-ready) before I mix, to get a cohesive feel. I try to make every track meaningful, in the sense of "adding something to the whole". I don't like to layer synths, again with the idea of a keyboard player having only two hands. A big influence here was Tony Banks - he could make two synths sound like a f**king orchestra, because he was so damn smart in both the sounds he used and in what he was actually playing. I ruthlessly throw out tracks that are just filler.

Just because you have the tools at your disposal, doesn't mean you HAVE to use them. Think about having a whole orchestra. Brilliant! But does that really mean you need to utilize every player in that orchestra? Why not just use the ones necessary for you to make your artistic statement? And the advantage of virtual orchestras is that you don't have to worry about the tuba player goofing off in the background because he's bored.

The big idea behind this philosophy is: is the composition strong enough to hold up when played on a guitar, or piano? If not, then 100 overdubs won't save it.

Anyways, that's my POV. No rules without exceptions, though: sometimes, overdubbing the hell out of things can be an art-form in itself. Phil Spector did some amazing stuff. There's a part on Mike Oldfield's Hergest Ridge where he purportedly overdubbed 90 guitars (!).

Good post, pretty much sums up my feelings.

I have just listened to your Soundcloud "Tyger" and it seems influenced by Genesis - Mike Oldfield.

LIke.

Much.

Will listen to some of the others later.

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:11 pm

As least as much as there are players in your real, or virtual, orchestra.

If some players used standard techniques like overdubbing, or separating all the modules of a drum kit, just add tracks.

Very simple actually, and this applies to anything from classical music, to rock bands, funk orchestra or any electronic stuff.

The key is to think : WIch orchestra, or who's allowed to overdub.

Distorted Horizon · Post by **Distorted Horizon** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:49 pm

dellboy wrote:My question is more related to the question of whether this is a good thing or not.

Does practically infinite synth sounds and track count = better music ?

Okay.

As many tracks as it takes. Sometimes less is more, sometimes not.

I like layering.. Nothing radical but subtle that isn't necessarily even heard more than once in the whole song. But that's the trick. When you listen the song again and again, there's always something to discover.

But generally IMO good songs are like a bag of candy. It has your favorite flavor, not so favorite and everything between. There's few bits of favorite that you cherish, maybe save them as last ones you'll eat and you buy another bag. But if you have a full bag of favorites, you'll just get bored since you're overfilled with favorite candies.
Same goes for songs. You have a lead maybe that you'll pick and like, and maybe some nice twirling sound behind everything that pleases.. but if there's 50 sounds fighting for your attention.. Your brain just had too much candy and wants to puke. If you're a candyholic (or have other issues), you may eat those candies again that you just puked only to puke again. But that's a different story.

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:15 pm

Lotuzia wrote:As least as much as there are players in your real, or virtual, orchestra.

If some players used standard techniques like overdubbing, or separating all the modules of a drum kit, just add tracks.

Very simple actually, and this applies to anything from classical music, to rock bands, funk orchestra or any electronic stuff.

The key is to think : WIch orchestra, or who's allowed to overdub.

Multi-tracking symphonic music with overdubs would surely start to get really unwieldy on a computer screen ?

lots of scrolling required. How do you keep track of where you are ?

ariston · Post by **ariston** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:17 pm

dellboy wrote:
Good post, pretty much sums up my feelings.

I have just listened to your Soundcloud "Tyger" and it seems influenced by Genesis - Mike Oldfield.

LIke.

Much.

Will listen to some of the others later.

Hey, thanks a lot for listening in! Yeah, you just named two of my biggest influences. Over the last year, I recorded 4 pieces in this "long-form" vein, and once I've finally gotten over the flu and its annoying long-term effects, I'll tie them up in a neat package and set about "releasing" them (probably on bandcamp).

dellboy · Post by **dellboy** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:32 pm

ariston wrote:
dellboy wrote:
Good post, pretty much sums up my feelings.

I have just listened to your Soundcloud "Tyger" and it seems influenced by Genesis - Mike Oldfield.

LIke.

Much.

Will listen to some of the others later.
Hey, thanks a lot for listening in! Yeah, you just named two of my biggest influences. Over the last year, I recorded 4 pieces in this "long-form" vein, and once I've finally gotten over the flu and its annoying long-term effects, I'll tie them up in a neat package and set about "releasing" them (probably on bandcamp).

Currently listening to your "The long hello".

Love it.

Not sure where your music sits.

Digic · Post by **Digic** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:39 pm

How many tracks is enough?
If you wanna make a good song, it doesn't matter. It can be 8 tracks, it can be 48. Whenever a person asks me this, or something like, what is the best daw, or what is the best vst etc, etc, i always tell them that "Sweet Dreams" song by Eurythmics was made on an 8-track machine. Could they done it better if they had a proper studio? Maybe. But they were restricted by that and still made a world wide hit.In fact, they made entire album on that.

"Their “studio” was a dingy, v-shaped warehouse attic. No acoustical tiles, no drum booth, no double-sealed glass window; they played and sang in the same room with their tape deck and mixing board, which were a TEAC half-inch 8-track and a cheap, used Soundcraft, respectively. For microphones, they had two Beyers, which they used to record everything - Annie’s voice, trumpets, percussion, the piano - and for outboard processing gear they had a handful of old effects boxes, a space echo, and one (count it, one) spring reverb. They made the Sweet Dreams album with that.

Also remarkable: they would run out of tracks on the TEAC, so Annie Lenox would sing harmonies during the mixdown."

http://tumblr.austinkleon.com/post/109135307151

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:45 pm

Three, one for each ear.

donkey tugger · Post by **donkey tugger** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:47 pm

As long as the computer's not actually on fire and just a bit hot, then you're ok to add a few more.

THE INTRANCER · Post by **THE INTRANCER** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:16 pm

Well, personally I've been producing music since the mid 1990's with 4 audio tracks of 4 channel stereo audio, 16 midi channels, 24 audio channels, which has risen to around 200 tracks of audio and instruments in the past year. Big tracks naturally involve more time, skill and effort as one would expect but ultimately, none of that matters if the music sucks. It comes down to the skill and talent of the producer, and that takes years and years of personal development and practice in this field.