KVR Audio

meister eder · Post by **meister eder** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:12 am

How to loop a discussion:

late in the thread, kritikon wrote:All you do is render to audio (which is exactly what freezing is). Then you keep the original midi track and sequences etc, but simply switch off the VSTi and any FX that it used and mute the track. They are still there, still recallable, but taking up minimal resources. If you later want to change the audio recording - you reactivate the VSTi and FX and midi channel and edit it, then render to audio again - exactly what freezing is doing, except you have to click your mouse a couple more times - how difficult is it to click your mouse?
It's not a workaround, it's just another way of doing the same thing. And there are very few VSTis or FX that take up any noticeable CPU resources if they're switched off but still loaded.

meister eder · Post by **meister eder** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:19 am

gol wrote:But I'm saying you can't do this in FL, because generators or effects can interact,

That's an easy to solve problem. In Logic you would have similar problems with plugins that use sidechains, or also with plugins that are being automated from other tracks.
The convenient thing to use here: The "Hide" function. You can set any track to 'hide' mode, and with the click of a button, any track set to 'hide' will be taken out of your view and thus is not in danger to be edited accidentally.
So what you do is just hide the tracks/functions/generators that have any influence on the track that you did freeze.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:12 am

Ehrm...

Well, there's a few things left unaddressed by various parties. So without tracing back and using quotes, I'll just share a bit of what I've come to learn--

Freeze is not necessarily the same as rendering a track, depending on how the host implements it. It will NOT necessarily give you a stack of audio files to stream from disk. It CAN take a long time, but with the end result being worthwhile depending on your system. Here's how:

-You select a track to freeze. Essentially it becomes an audio file, and if your host works properly (SX 2, I'm looking at you), the plug-ins are unloaded.

-But what if you freeze a 2nd track? Well, your host might just freeze it, too, generating another audio file. ORRR... it might re-render BOTH frozen tracks into ONE audio file, then unload the plug-ins.

-Ditto for each subsequent track. The benefit is that you are always ending up with exactly the same minimal resource usage from as many frozen tracks as you care to freeze. Freeze 100 of them, and you still only end up with one audio file.

-The PROBLEM with this method is that individual pan and volume is not possible on the frozen tracks. The other problem is that the more tracks you freeze, each time you want to do a freeze it takes that much longer to render to frozen. You may think, "what? I only froze this near-empty track?" but the engine is re-rendering ALL frozen tracks into one.

**Ideally, I'd like it to be a simple option. Either you group all frozen tracks together, or you do them all separately. Or maybe you can freeze submixes. That's a good option.

There was a post early in the thread saying that the frozen parts don't become a .wav (.aiff for Mac I guess), but rather "internal audio". I'm not sure what was meant by that, but I'm fairly confident that you'll find that your frozen tracks are indeed disk-streamed audio files. If not, I'm curious to find out what is meant by "internal audio" and which host uses that method. None that I can think of, but that doesn't mean it's not so.

Greg

jmh · Post by **jmh** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:05 am

Dr. Wackler it's a nice suggestion but sadly doesn't solve the problem in FL.

After reading Gol's explanation it became clear how hard (nearly impossible) it really is to provide a simple one click freeze.

The problem is with the interaction. Say you have a pad on one channel, whose cutoff is modulated by the amplitude of a kick drum. Now, this pad is fed to its own effects channel which is then routed to another channel for final reverb, this channel getting other instruments fed to it as well. To make things even more complicated, let's add an lfo that modulates one of the pad's effect channel's effects, and add another lfo that modulates some parameter in the reverb.

Without magic, an AI based analysis or simply lots of painstaking time and effort better used for something else, it would be nearly impossible to provide a simple button that can take all these into consideration when the user decides to freeze the pad synth since it eats so much CPU.

Somebody propably thinks "but it could happen only at instrument level, drop the effects from the equation and it becomes simple to solve", but no... as long as internal controllers play a part in this, it's really hard. Unless Gol can come up with a way to that checks internal controllers, tracks what modulates what and disables everything else for duration of freezing (not to mention mutes a source that modulates something else and also is audible in the mix and so on)... or something akin to that.

I guess the macro solution he mentioned will do something like indeed. (I can imagine that the macro would disable other generators, take care of naming the file to be recorded into, and dump the file back to a new channel / audio track...)

FL seems to be too powerful for this, there is no way around it

The only practical solution is arming the track you want to freeze by hand. A bit cumbersome, perhaps, but not that big a task really.

And yes, all this knowledge from a demo version

(for those who care, I have an XXL bundle on hold - everything including the marvellous Sytrus, license transfer has been cleared by the seller, all I need is to decide whether I want to continue living in my current apartment or get FL right away instead of a little wait and move in with my mom

)

Regards,

JMH

christianmusicmaker · Post by **christianmusicmaker** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:08 am

Interesting discussion on freeze.

Tracktion has had this for some time and now Sonar4 looks to have really taken the idea onboard.

"Workflow—Freeze redefined

Break through the limits of your effect and synth use with SONAR 4. SONAR 4's superior freeze implementation for tracks, effects, and synths allows you to optimize your system resources with a new level of flexibility.

Render your tracks to reduce CPU load in one easy step

SONAR will automatically unload plug-ins, releasing memory back to the system (especially helpful when using large sampler banks)

SONAR 4 efficiently freezes only when data is present, conserving disk space

Quick Unfreeze/Freeze retains frozen data when unfreezing, for quick toggling/auditioning of tracks. This allows you to experiment with settings of Frozen tracks, and you can revert back instantly if you decide not to make the change.

Edit and arrange frozen tracks

A distinguishing feature of SONAR 4's Freeze implementation is the ability to move and edit frozen data—you can even convert loops of frozen data into groove clips".

meister eder · Post by **meister eder** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:51 pm

jmh wrote:Dr. Wackler it's a nice suggestion but sadly doesn't solve the problem in FL. ...[snip]...

I see. I wasn't aware of the complexity and about how substantial the interaction between generators seems to be in FL.
Certainly it wouldn't be impossible (quite the contrary, since FL 'knows' very well about each interaction and could just block the involved ones from editing), but it wouldn't really make sense workflow wise.
Things can become quite complex in Logic routing wise too, but in everyday sequencing they rarely are - that's the difference.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:56 pm

After reading Gol's explanation it became clear how hard (nearly impossible) it really is to provide a simple one click freeze

It's not impossible, it's just, as I'm telling, that freezing will take A LOT of time, that is, the time it takes to render the whole song. Then it's perfectly usable.
Of course, the interaction you mentionned, after the target track has been frozen, won't work anymore until it's unfrozen, but I guess users would expect that (and I know, some won't, will see the freezing as broken, will claim we don't fix bugs and ask for a refund, but I don't care).

I'm just seeing people complaining about the huge time it takes to freeze a track in cubase, 'making it useless'. Well I don't want to work on a freezing in FL knowing that most will find it 'useless'.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:20 pm

I never thought I'd rave about freezing (and well, I'm not exactly raving still...), but as said, once you had a look at how LogicPro does it (fast, convenient, almost unnoticeable because it's happening more or less in the background, unlike the lame VSTi freeze function in SX 2) you will just know that it's not necessarily a hassle. A godsend for all those working with aging computers, such as those powerbooks

topaz · Post by **topaz** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:25 pm

SX2 would only freeze complete project length,
thats why it took so long.

with SX3 you can freeze by region, making it FAST.

gol wrote:I'm just seeing people complaining about the huge time it takes to freeze a track in cubase, 'making it useless'. Well I don't want to work on a freezing in FL knowing that most will find it 'useless'.

neverwhere2012 · Post by **neverwhere2012** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:30 pm

just gonna toss in my 2 cents. i use freeze in logic religiously and never have any problems. if i'm at the limits of my cpu usage and my machine won't allow me 2 seconds of playback before it says enough, then i really don't mind waiting the 3-5 minutes it might take to freeze 20 tracks of a 5-6 minute long song. it works well, and if i really wanted to, could import the freeze files back into logic as audio and just disable and hide all the original tracks. it's too bad that when everyone else jumped on the Emagic "freeze" bandwagon (correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure Logic had freeze first), they didn't take time to implement it in a "logical" way (i'm through with the puns now). i believe DP4's freeze function does a realtime bounce, so if you freeze even one track, it takes the length of the song.

LoRez · Post by **LoRez** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:28 pm

neverwhere2012 wrote:just gonna toss in my 2 cents. i use freeze in logic religiously and never have any problems. if i'm at the limits of my cpu usage and my machine won't allow me 2 seconds of playback before it says enough, then i really don't mind waiting the 3-5 minutes it might take to freeze 20 tracks of a 5-6 minute long song. it works well, and if i really wanted to, could import the freeze files back into logic as audio and just disable and hide all the original tracks. it's too bad that when everyone else jumped on the Emagic "freeze" bandwagon (correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure Logic had freeze first), they didn't take time to implement it in a "logical" way (i'm through with the puns now). i believe DP4's freeze function does a realtime bounce, so if you freeze even one track, it takes the length of the song.

Sonar4's freeze will automatically render only the area where data is present. It also displays the frozen track as audio so you can manipulate it, groove clip it, etc. Also, the quick freeze/unfreeze allows you to A/B without waiting for freeze to render or "un-render". You can also freeze just effects or just a synth or both. To me this seems to be at least as good of an implementation as in Logic. So I guess the point is that not everyone who "jumped on the freeze bandwagon" did a half ass job if implementing it.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:30 pm

neverwhere2012 wrote:(correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure Logic had freeze first)

Tracktion was there first, believe it or not, though neither came up with the idea or the term. I'm not a Logic user, but it sounds like it's very well-implemented on that app. Tracktion's freeze is flawless, too, but it DOES take a long time on complex songs because it renders -all- frozen tracks into one audio file. However, this is really the only way to do things if the expected end result is a reduction in system resources being used.

Greg

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:31 pm

LoRez wrote: To me this seems to be at least as good of an implementation as in Logic.

Yeah, defenitely sounding pretty much reasonable.

LoRez · Post by **LoRez** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:35 pm

Lunch Money wrote:
neverwhere2012 wrote:(correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure Logic had freeze first)
Tracktion was there first, believe it or not, though neither came up with the idea or the term. I'm not a Logic user, but it sounds like it's very well-implemented on that app. Tracktion's freeze is flawless, too, but it DOES take a long time on complex songs because it renders -all- frozen tracks into one audio file. However, this is really the only way to do things if the expected end result is a reduction in system resources being used.

Greg

Not true that freeze has to render all tracks to one file to get a reduction in system resources. One audio track is far easier for a DAW to play back than a large hungry virtual intrument, especially with effects. Playing back a stereo audio track on a modern computer takes very little juice to accomplish...whereas having a huge Kontakt sample or some giant Arturia synth takes far more resources (CPU and RAM). Personally I would rather have my frozen tracks rendered to individual files...it's faster and you have more flexibility after the fact.

neverwhere2012 · Post by **neverwhere2012** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:37 pm

LoRez wrote:
neverwhere2012 wrote:just gonna toss in my 2 cents. i use freeze in logic religiously and never have any problems. if i'm at the limits of my cpu usage and my machine won't allow me 2 seconds of playback before it says enough, then i really don't mind waiting the 3-5 minutes it might take to freeze 20 tracks of a 5-6 minute long song. it works well, and if i really wanted to, could import the freeze files back into logic as audio and just disable and hide all the original tracks. it's too bad that when everyone else jumped on the Emagic "freeze" bandwagon (correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure Logic had freeze first), they didn't take time to implement it in a "logical" way (i'm through with the puns now). i believe DP4's freeze function does a realtime bounce, so if you freeze even one track, it takes the length of the song.
Sonar4's freeze will automatically render only the area where data is present. It also displays the frozen track as audio so you can manipulate it, groove clip it, etc. Also, the quick freeze/unfreeze allows you to A/B without waiting for freeze to render or "un-render". You can also freeze just effects or just a synth or both. To me this seems to be at least as good of an implementation as in Logic. So I guess the point is that not everyone who "jumped on the freeze bandwagon" did a half ass job if implementing it.

my point didn't extend to the fact that sonar 4 got released like, 2 days ago while freeze has been around for a while.

i would really hope that they implemented it properly in S4 since they've had the chance to watch so many varying degrees of success and failure on other platforms.

Freezing