Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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jancivil
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16147 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:15 pm

herodotus wrote:
jancivil wrote: I hear what you are saying: "But there are subtleties" - yes. but it's usually not happening. It's the same with any vi.
I would say, rather, that they happen all of the time, but that no one really cares about these subtle details. I am not even sure that I care about them, at least for my own music.
"not happening" is just a figure of speech. I'm a beatnik or something. :shrug:

We're saying the same thing but at cross-purposes now, not sure why. I care more than anybody around about it probably. I don't find your super-exotic scenarios that exotic really, in fact.

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herodotus
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5483 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:31 am

jancivil wrote:
herodotus wrote:
jancivil wrote: I hear what you are saying: "But there are subtleties" - yes. but it's usually not happening. It's the same with any vi.
I would say, rather, that they happen all of the time, but that no one really cares about these subtle details. I am not even sure that I care about them, at least for my own music.
"not happening" is just a figure of speech. I'm a beatnik or something. :shrug:

We're saying the same thing but at cross-purposes now, not sure why.
Because WAR!! That's why.
I don't find your super-exotic scenarios that exotic really, in fact.
Drummers, since the very beginning of the drum kit, have been individualistic as a matter of necessity. Drum kits started as collections of drums and cymbals that were not designed to be used together in the way that they were. And to this day, there is no standard drum kit in the way that there is a standard piano or a standard tenor saxophone. There is no standard repertoire for the drum kit, nor a collection of skills that you need to master to call yourself a kit drummer.

This makes sampling a drum kit a bit different from sampling a piano.

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Aloysius
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22490 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from a computer

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:55 am

When live drums are recorded, they become samples, so who cares? Make love, not war.
Happy Christmas

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pljones
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6331 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:34 am

When sampled drums are triggered and the performance recorded, that becomes a recording... ;P

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
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10789 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:47 am

herodotus wrote:The only way to do it would be to design the sample set around their idiosyncrasies from the bottom up. And why would anyone put that amount of work into such a niche product?
Exactly! So, sampled drums are not inherently worse. All that is required is for the kits, hits, articulations, velocities, round-robin's etc. to be recorded. The end market demand will likely resign it to 'labour of love' status, but it is not really so difficult if you already have everything in place for that kind of thing :tu:

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Sampleconstruct
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14299 posts since 12 Oct, 2008 from Here and there

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00 pm

I'm in the process of mixing some studio sessions my brother and I did together with a 7-piece band including two drummers. Phase-aligning all those mic signals, coping with the cross-feed, deleting all those untight kicks and rim shots, what a PITA...

No, actually it's awesome and I love the combo of two drummers, even when played a bit sloppy...

D-Fusion
KVRAF
3401 posts since 13 Jul, 2004 from Earth

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:04 pm

Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)

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Hink
Rad Grandad
27501 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm

D-Fusion wrote:Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-te49oUpo4

ftr I am in no way passing judgment nor am I calling anyone names, they made the video, they named it and they put it on youtube :shrug: I felt obligated to share this find which also just might speak to my point of what happens when there is a drumset in the room and the attraction there of...I apologize for the sound quality, it's not your speakers :ud:

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herodotus
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5483 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:22 pm

Aloysius wrote:When live drums are recorded, they become samples, so who cares? Make love, not war.
Oh, I see. First you want to exile drummers from the company of other musicians, and now you wuss out when it gets a little rough?


(In case it isn't obvious, the words written above are not to be taken seriously.)

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herodotus
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5483 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:34 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
herodotus wrote:The only way to do it would be to design the sample set around their idiosyncrasies from the bottom up. And why would anyone put that amount of work into such a niche product?
Exactly! So, sampled drums are not inherently worse. All that is required is for the kits, hits, articulations, velocities, round-robin's etc. to be recorded. The end market demand will likely resign it to 'labour of love' status, but it is not really so difficult if you already have everything in place for that kind of thing :tu:
Well it isn't just making the samples, it's mapping them in a practical way that can be played by people with only two hands and ten fingers.

But I will acknowledge that the only thing standing in the way of a sample set that accurately captures the sound of Bill Bruford's drumming is about 500 man hours of unpaid labor.

Easy Peasy.

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jancivil
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16147 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:41 pm

herodotus wrote:There is no standard repertoire for the drum kit, nor a collection of skills that you need to master to call yourself a kit drummer.
If you can't hack Mary, Mary by the Monkees you aren't so much a drummer.

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jancivil
KVRAF
16147 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:44 pm

D-Fusion wrote:Sampled drums makes you fat and Real drums makes you fit :)
fat IS fit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQJHOAkbb_g

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pljones
KVRAF
6331 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:18 pm

Can we start on brush kits now?

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Russell Grand
KVRAF
1547 posts since 22 May, 2017

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:31 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
herodotus wrote:Sampled Drums will never be able to replace a Real Drum performance
Two different things. The sounds are not the performance.

I'd take David 'Fingers' Haynes on a drum machine over an amateur with 20gig of multi-sampled kit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oThXwURLLhs
Damn, he's awesome! :hail:

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
10789 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Real versus Sampled drums: the neglected flamewar.

Post Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:48 am

pljones wrote:Can we start on brush kits now?
Oh shit! I completely forgot about that brush-kit thread :oops:

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