Making music vs Performing It

[herodotus]

One thing that should be noted about people using loopstations and other forms of self sampling on stage is that it is really difficult to get a band going.

I tried for damn near 20 years. First I tried to get people to play my more difficult music. 4 years and 300 tryouts later, I gave up.

So I tried writing simpler music, got a decent band going, and after 4 years of work, including buying one member a bass and amp, we finally had a truly successful gig. Our mailing list grew by over 50 names that night, while a room full of people we didn't know (college friends of the band that played before us) stayed out late on a Thursday night just because our songs and performance compelled them to do so. It should have been the beginning of something great. We broke up with a great deal of acrimony less than a week later.

Since then, I have kept trying to get something going. But I am at the point where I am seriously considering going on stage with a sequencer. The joys of interacting with other musicians on stage still appeals to me in an ideal sense. But 20 years later it sounds more like a just so story than a reasonable goal.

And I live in a decently large metropolitan area that until recently contained a lively music scene. I can't imagine how much more frustrating it must be for people living in small towns and rural areas.

[funky lime]

The thing which impoverishes Jason Collier, so obviously, is the lack of exchange with other musicians.

But his grasp of, and enthusiasm for, music theory speaks otherwise. Music theory is, after all, the ability to communicate, or exchange with other musicians in a semantic manner. [/quote]

Jazz is exactly the wrong platform for a guy doing all the parts himself.

Somebody better tell Duke Ellington; he must have missed your memo.

Solo jazz piano is not jazz?

Youtube million views for some nonsense is, I don't know what it is but people with knowledge and with any wisdom know better. If the millions of views for garbage rules the world, fine. It doesn't change what is real in music.

"I don't like it, therefore it's nonsense. And if you disagree, it's because you lack my knowledge and wisdom." That's how this reads to me, anyway.

Anyway, here's something written for and realized on the Synclavier as a finished piece nonetheless performed live on a stage.

It'll never get the million views.

I don't see how this is really any different. It's all about "look what we can do" rather than actually trying to convey any significance to the audience. It's just gratuitous, deconstructed note salad that happens to involve ten people instead of one. The composition appears to strive to alienate and disorient just for the sake of doing so, albeit in a playful manner at times. It does reinforce your point, however, that the technical prowess of the arrangement and instrumentalists seems to overshadow the need to convey any sense of soul or humanity. Not my cup of tea anyway. Or maybe I should just say, "I don't like it, therefore it's nonsense."

Also, considering this Fred Zappa guy composed all the parts himself, somebody better tell him it's not jazz.

[funky lime]

One thing that should be noted about people using loopstations and other forms of self sampling on stage is that it is really difficult to get a band going.

I tried for damn near 20 years. First I tried to get people to play my more difficult music. 4 years and 300 tryouts later, I gave up.

So I tried writing simpler music, got a decent band going, and after 4 years of work, including buying one member a bass and amp, we finally had a truly successful gig. Our mailing list grew by over 50 names that night, while a room full of people we didn't know (college friends of the band that played before us) stayed out late on a Thursday night just because our songs and performance compelled them to do so. It should have been the beginning of something great. We broke up with a great deal of acrimony less than a week later.

Since then, I have kept trying to get something going. But I am at the point where I am seriously considering going on stage with a sequencer. The joys of interacting with other musicians on stage still appeals to me in an ideal sense. But 20 years later it sounds more like a just so story than a reasonable goal.

And I live in a decently large metropolitan area that until recently contained a lively music scene. I can't imagine how much more frustrating it must be for people living in small towns and rural areas.

You do raise an interesting point, about the "one-person band" being a product of necessity rather than an entirely deliberate choice. Bands can be like the delicate balancing act of polyamory/polygamy. A lot of people do actually decide to relocate in order to mingle with a wider variety of talent. A friend once told me that proximity to the life pulse of the art is more important than all the talent and gear in the world. He said "I don't care how great you are or how nice your home studio is; you're not going to get a job scoring hollywood films if you aren't in hollywood."

I live in a midwestern capital city where all the really talented people seem to migrate elsewhere, to Portland or Nashville or LA or NYC or Seattle or wherever, once they reach a certain threshold of "viability" in their respective pursuits. Or at least the ones who are career-oriented about it do. And the ones who stay are too busy trying to make a living between the three cover bands they play in, to actually pursue other musical endeavors.

[vurt]

fred zappa

maybe ben tin king should use that

[Hink]

fred zappa

edit: I'm sorry that's Zappstone, his daughter is moonrock

[herodotus]

A lot of people do actually decide to relocate in order to mingle with a wider variety of talent. A friend once told me that proximity to the life pulse of the art is more important than all the talent and gear in the world. He said "I don't care how great you are or how nice your home studio is; you're not going to get a job scoring hollywood films if you aren't in hollywood."

I was told that Portland was a great place for musicians, but my experiences on their local Craigslist was as dispiriting as the rest.

Maybe the cool people there don't use Craigslist, but that seems like a weak reason to pick up and move house to a place where home prices are nearly double what they are here.

Anyway, I would rather record bands in my own basement than move. There are plenty of customers, and I don't have to deal with all of the snark.

And while living in Hollywood might be a necessary condition for being a successful Hollywood composer, it is certainly not a sufficient condition. Until Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman die there will always be far more aspiring composers than there are job opportunities.

[jancivil]

I was advised to move to Minneapolis/St Paul because there's where music was happening.
It's too cold for me, so no worries.

Success like that typically means a lot of work in areas where my deficiencies are pretty pronounced.

It takes getting around and getting known and as a young person I was not built for much of that.

Have you ever been to Hollywood? "It's a really ugly little town" - FZ
He wasn't kidding. My impression was a group of people who didn't care for each other were locked in a room for a fortnight and given nothing but cocaine the entire time had to draw up the city planning in order to be let out.


Hollywood = the motion picture industry in regularspeak and is not strictly literal, o' course.

[herodotus]

I was advised to move to Minneapolis/St Paul because there's where music was happening.
It's too cold for me, so no worries.

That's where I live. The scene sucks. A nice place to live, though. (I actually live in a suburb called Columbia Heights. It was the only house of over 100 that we looked at that had a basement that didn't leak. But Minneapolis is where I grew up and it is only 13 blocks away.)

[jancivil]

I knew that. You, EW and Runagate. Well CJ moved around some and made a couple left turns at Albuquerque, donno.

This was... I don't even know. Long ago.

13 walking blocks or 13 take all afternoon, you could die blocks?

[herodotus]

I knew that. You, EW and Runagate. Well CJ moved around some and made a couple left turns at Albuquerque, donno.

This was... I don't even know. Long ago.

13 walking blocks or 13 take all afternoon, you could die blocks?

I hate walking, but on a bicycle I can get to Minneapolis within 5 minutes on most days.

[Jace-BeOS]

One thing that should be noted about people using loopstations and other forms of self sampling on stage is that it is really difficult to get a band going.
[...]
And I live in a decently large metropolitan area that until recently contained a lively music scene. I can't imagine how much more frustrating it must be for people living in small towns and rural areas.

I'm in a small "bedroom community" town, next to a slightly less small town that pretends to be a big city. I'd be happy to just meet someone I could be close friends with, let alone be a musical duo with. It's not happening here.

I agree. Putting a band together is a very difficult thing to do. Sure you could hire a bunch of players (if you have money!!), but is that a band? If you're going to share creativity and credits, it's probably a lot more like building a family. Maybe even akin to finding romantic relationship partners. Creativity is intimate, right?

Trying to find a cluster of people to match up with in terms of tastes, skills, motivation, scheduling... to spend *lots* of time together without breeding contempt, agreeing to work/create together... Finding friends is hard enough (unless you don't need depth in your friends).

In general response to this thread:

I cannot perform on any instrument other than my voice (and I don't have nearly enough vocal material of my own to practice with). If not for computers, I wouldn't be making music at all.

I have a hate-hate relationship with computers, firstly. Secondly, I don't like how flooded the world is with what I consider "unmusical" music, and I find it somewhat insulting that "beatmaking" is a fad. Still, I absolutely enjoy the fact that today's tools allow me to create actual music; even music I like.

I can be fairly certain I will never be performing live, ever. At best (and still highly unlikely), I might sing. I tried out for a band once. They liked my voice but didn't care for my writing (too personal). They ultimately decided to stay instrumental. The band itself broke up months later, which is a shame because their music was fantastic.

Theirs was a socially awkward setup: the two people doing most of the work were a progressive-leaning(?) couple (pianist woman; bassist/engineer man). The drummer was a skilled, but utterly unmotivated, jock-type dudebro, and was the brother of the pianist woman. The fourth guy i think was hired-on for guitar(??). Three of them lived together in the parents' house (practicing in the basement), and everyone was going to a different college. Eventually the couple broke up. I'm not sure if that killed the band or if the band died first.

The artistry was there where it mattered most, but the band was seemingly doomed to failure via numerous social complications (plus the fact that average Americans don't care to listen to instrumental music, especially live).

Looking at the area where I live and stories like the above, I have zero motivation to pursue people to put together a band. Like I said, I'd be happy to just find someone local with whom to be close friends. I have little hope for that, let alone finding another musician I want to work with (and wants to work with me).

[funky lime]

Finding bandmates on craigslist is always a long shot. I think you just gotta get "in the scene," meet people, go to a bunch of shows, etc. Maybe find the bored-looking bassist who plays in a top 40s cover band at a sports bar, buy him a couple drinks, and steal or borrow him.

But then you get into "what do i want in a band?" Like Herodotus pointed out earlier, there are way more performers than composers. Do you want the bass player to write her own parts? To play what you wrote? To meet in the middle by expanding on your specific vision? I've played in all three types of those band settings, and it can get tricky. Sometimes there's a leader who already has a vision and just wants you to essentially be his backing track; even if you like the music, that can get tiresome. Now I'm no sheet-music person. I don't even have the stomach to work with MIDI most of the time; it's all printed to audio when I hit record. So that sort of band situation feels stifling for people like me.

Enter the machines... backing tracks, loop pedals, sequencers, harmonizers. I might be a decent drummer, or at least I would hope so after this many years, but I can say for sure that there are things these machines do better than me. Like, show up. Be reliable. Don't get high. Tune those toms. Don't over-perform the part. Don't be an asshole. Sync to a loop pedal perfectly without a click. Don't get tired. Don't get bored. Et cetera.

But some of the most fun I've ever had was playing in a trio that did ~95% improvisation. Did the music sound "good?" Maybe, maybe not. It was raw, exploratory, fallible. But the people in the band were having a great time on stage. And I guess that's why I go to shows: to hear people having a great time on stage. (and maybe to poach a bass player)

And if that happens to be just one dude with a bunch of his machines... well, we're in the future now, so I guess, why not.

As for Portland, if you want "Captain Jack Sparrow stops by Whole Foods for homeopathic butt cream after pillaging the nearby co-ops and wearing all their bracelets, who refuses to play in such a pedestrian time signature as 7/8" in your band, it might be just the place for you.

[herodotus]

Finding bandmates on craigslist is always a long shot. I think you just gotta get "in the scene," meet people, go to a bunch of shows, etc. Maybe find the bored-looking bassist who plays in a top 40s cover band at a sports bar, buy him a couple drinks, and steal or borrow him

You are describing 10 years of my life.

[Chemik]

I am fascinated by the whole live show concept. Why does a metal band that re-produces every last note of a famous song get more credence than a band playing over a tape background? I think it is because most audiences want to see you "work". I loved Depeche growing up. The Hamburg show from '84 where they are all busy playing (working) inspired me to go all in with synth based music. I did many live shows as a two piece industrial band and my bandmate and I gave ourselves as many parts as we could handle live. I wanted people to know we knew how to play. I wanted them to hear the occasional missed note. That we cared enough about them, to work for them.

Yet, crowds fill up Deadmaus shows where he does about as little as could be excused. Knob tweaking. I hate that this is what "live" music has become. Knob tweaking. But it is what it is.

[bermudagold]

I hate that this is what "live" music has become. Knob tweaking. But it is what it is.

So Gina Turner is "performing live" in DC tonight.....the DC City Paper, a print and online publication with significant circulation has this listed as a "critic's pick".....the first video that came up when searched was this


A significant enough demographic sees this as a compelling value added proposition at $45?...apparently she is leading a yoga session on stage prior....is this a compelling differentiation?...does this make it new and novel....a sort of holistic musical appreciation?....or is it gimmicky?
Trust me I am not on some old grandpa get off my lawn isht.....I came up participating in the underground block party/b boy battle, and sound system clash scenes as both a producer and consumer from the age of 10 yrs old.....i can appreciate "vibes" and "scenes" that aren't necessarily about musicianship and songwriting....just genuinely intrigued by the possibilities and the obstacles,..and curious about where its headed and what is sustainable