When did "pop music" become synonymous with "music"?

[herodotus]

Julie London will always have a place in my heart. And the musicians she worked with were first rate.

This arrangement is just haunting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bnTCuGoL9mQ

My Mom had a ton of great records. Lots of standards, lots of Big bands, lots of popular classics. I remember Sheherazade from pre-school, along with Charlie Barnett's band playing Harlem Nocturne, and Sarah Vaughn singing 'When Sunny gets Blue'.

It's weird what you can remember sometimes.

[vurt]

i may have just thanked you in a different thread

[rp314]

I recall a time during one's youth when some of our heroes, Frank Zappa, Keith Emerson, Joni Mitchell to name a few, seemed to often want to get us to check out musicians from that other realm. So, concerts at the Fillmore might include artists like Miles Davis or Ravi Shankar, and the aforementioned sometimes covered music by folks like Stravinsky, Charles Mingus and Alberto Ginastera in their performances and recordings.

I think that there is a lot of great music being made right now but it's probably in need of more advocacy, even if in general there will likely always be more attention paid to mainstream efforts.

[jancivil]

Julie London will always have a place in my heart. And the musicians she worked with were first rate.

This arrangement is just haunting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bnTCuGoL9mQ

My Mom had a ton of great records. Lots of standards, lots of Big bands, lots of popular classics. I remember Sheherazade from pre-school, along with Charlie Barnett's band playing Harlem Nocturne, and Sarah Vaughn singing 'When Sunny gets Blue'.

It's weird what you can remember sometimes.

Russ Garcia arranged that. My favorite period is the Bobby Troupe band with Dennis Budimir on guitar


My (red-headed) sister is named after her.

[yellowmix]

Literally 'fore-guard'. What is it about these plebes' behavior in an art or any activity that places them in front of the rest, taking the risk at the front? Here in your rhetoric they _can't_ take that risk. It's a nonsense use of the term. It seems to be a defense for the unsung heroes in music "when classical music was new" and now. No. Milton Babbitt is avant-garde. It's not all that vague a term.

Huh? Experimental, radical, new, pushing the envelope, whatever you want to call it. Like I said, the great European composers were, developing the musical notation we use today, and advancing music, while other contemporaries were doing more routine stuff. The great ones certainly took risks, and took personal losses and were rewarded for them, especially posthumously. We don't need audio recordings to know this, we know from various writings how the public received the works.

We don't know a majority of what the underclass produced at the time because it didn't survive beyond oral tradition. But we certainly know what the underclass has produced since the advent of musical notation and audio recording, especially as it was concurrent with the development of anthropology, and various barriers have come down. And yes, they took and take great personal risk. Do they spend the money to get stuff recorded or do they and their family eat? Yet, in America (as the context is American) they have blues and its all its descendants that changed the world. Why would anyone deny this?

[jancivil]

Well, I noticed you don't know what people who didn't 'make it' then did so calling it avant-garde is something in your head and it isn't going to travel far.

I imply Mozart was technically ahead of the rest at that time. Was there an extreme position he decided to take and follow up on it? It doesn't appear so.

Some have actually argued that Richard Wagner is the first avant-garde composer. I actually understand his innovations and where they fit in the harmonic language and the sort of organic development of it. It's all tonal music. There is no break or new position taken. Now, in this development - analysis of tonal harmony relies on locating the I harmony and in certain works, some will include Wagner here, questions arise - Arnold Schoenberg makes a break and comes up with a system that is_not tonality. That's avant-garde. That is probably not a good model for 'experimental' music, however. I like an argument that makes such distinctions, "Experimental, radical, new, pushing the envelope, whatever you want to call it" is not a definition. Definite, finite... So Wagner was radical to many with the Tristan chord. But it's a type of secondary dominant known as the Augmented Sixth Chord. He placed an appoggiatura on it so it's a new sound for a short moment. Aug 6ths, JS Bach was doing it. It's a French Sixth. When was that arrived at?

IE: this does not amount to avant-garde music.

"the great European composers were, developing the musical notation we use today"
the musical notation we use today was fixed and has only been reinvented in the 20th century to meet demands that came about through avant-garde or experimental music. Guido's syllables in that hexachord, which come down with a slight alteration as solfege today, wound up on the 5-line staff; this was 'new' but avant-garde was probably not even a word at the time.

Also annoying in the reiteration of it is your 'academic music' standing for music that lies outside popular music.
I make music that will end up in the avant-garde bin. Some of it probably is! It didn't happen in the academy. Frank Zappa music, some of it is avant-garde music, he took harmony in junior college and beyond that, analysis in the library. Not academic. OTOH: Babbitt resided in academia, with close proximity to composers in the avant-garde.

I like definitions.

[jancivil]

We don't know a majority of what the underclass produced at the time because it didn't survive beyond oral tradition. But we certainly know what the underclass has produced since the advent of musical notation and audio recording, especially as it was concurrent with the development of anthropology, and various barriers have come down. And yes, they took and take great personal risk. Do they spend the money to get stuff recorded or do they and their family eat? Yet, in America (as the context is American) they have blues and its all its descendants that changed the world. Why would anyone deny this?

This is very strained. This thrust only confused the issue. I don't get how me interrogating your rhetoric amounts to me denying blues happened in America or whatever this paragraph is saying was denied. You aren't talking about avant-garde music in it and to point that out is the beginning and end of my interest in that.

[jancivil]

From ALLMUSIC Classical » Avant-Garde Music page
Implicit in the term are the rejection of the status quo, a critique of popular convention and taste, and a striving for originality that can be intentionally provocative or alienating.
Works for me.

So, Erik Satie doing planed mixed fourths (perfect and augmented) in le fils des étoiles Prelude to Act I is avant-garde.
As a gesture; it informs the form of the work: the intervals he planes that structure with turn up in the 'Theme' portion of the piece and he continues to form chords which are for most completely unheard of ideas. So the composition is avant-garde. He did a number of things like this.

my le fils des étoiles

[vurt]

From ALLMUSIC Classical » Avant-Garde Music page
Implicit in the term are the rejection of the status quo, a critique of popular convention and taste, and a striving for originality that can be intentionally provocative or alienating.

[yellowmix]

From ALLMUSIC Classical » Avant-Garde Music page
Implicit in the term are the rejection of the status quo, a critique of popular convention and taste, and a striving for originality that can be intentionally provocative or alienating.
Works for me.

Do you consider jazz avant garde?

[vurt]

From ALLMUSIC Classical » Avant-Garde Music page
Implicit in the term are the rejection of the status quo, a critique of popular convention and taste, and a striving for originality that can be intentionally provocative or alienating.
Works for me.

Do you consider jazz avant garde?

not all jazz no, but the avant garde jazz, yup. 100%

[jancivil]

Pierre Boulez is not here
he never was
you must have a wrong number

[donkey tugger]

rejection of the status quo

That's where you're going wrong. Don't f**k with the mighty Quo.

[jancivil]

footage appropriated from The Wasp Woman, Roger Corman

[jancivil]

From ALLMUSIC Classical » Avant-Garde Music page
Implicit in the term are the rejection of the status quo, a critique of popular convention and taste, and a striving for originality that can be intentionally provocative or alienating.
Works for me.

Do you consider jazz avant garde?

not all jazz no, but the avant garde jazz, yup. 100%

No, I suppose 'Trad Jazz' is...
wait for it




traditional
with not a forward kind of a stance anywhere to be found. instead, maybe even dealing in an embrace of a status quo


but this is both pop AND avant-garde
both kinds of music


- possibly intentionally provocative to even make this thing

it sounds almost normal to me now.