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plexuss
KVRAF
 
1964 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:35 pm Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

Here is are 3 different tracks used in a final mix that I used Spiff on. This is a comparison of the dry and wet versions of the 3 tracks: dry and then wet for each. The wet version is exacly what is used in the final mix and at the same level. You can hear the artifacts in the first example most clearly.

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/sp ... es/s-TZYvh

The first example happens at 2:40, the 2nd and 3rd are at 4:44...

Final mix:

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/in ... de-of-grey
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pekbro
KVRAF
 
1842 posts since 29 Sep, 2010, from Maui

Postby pekbro; Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:45 pm Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

To me it doesnt sound overly better than elysia’s envelope. At least not enough for me to justify the cost, particularly when I rarely use the transient processors I already have.

Also the latency is a turnoff for me personally.

Neat though, definitely.
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plexuss
KVRAF
 
1964 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:22 pm Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

Here's another example. I am deviating a lot from what I think is the typical use of Spiff. However it has a wide range of use and it's interesting to push Spiff into more sound design areas. In this track there are 4 tracks: 3 synth sequences and drums. the drums are unaffected through out. There are 16 bars of each: dry, wet, delta. Wet is with Spiff on each track, each dialed into the sound. Delta is with delta on demonstrating the possibilties of using the delta output as an effect.

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/sp ... le/s-5heHL
TIMT
KVRian
 
621 posts since 7 Mar, 2009

Postby TIMT; Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:13 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

plexuss wrote:Here's another example. I am deviating a lot from what I think is the typical use of Spiff. However it has a wide range of use and it's interesting to push Spiff into more sound design areas. In this track there are 4 tracks: 3 synth sequences and drums. the drums are unaffected through out. There are 16 bars of each: dry, wet, delta. Wet is with Spiff on each track, each dialed into the sound. Delta is with delta on demonstrating the possibilties of using the delta output as an effect.

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/sp ... le/s-5heHL


Yeah,sounds pretty cool as an effect,but as a mix plugin i'm gonna give it a pass.all the things i pointed out about lack of proper snap and stuff i've heard for myself after demoing it

I think part of the issue that stems from trying to allocate transients into narrow frequency bands for me is that transients are very broadband sounds.a lot of the times you'll find the crack in an acoustic snare for example is because of the extremely asymmetric phase of the partials creating DC like components at the very beginning on top of the partials that provide the sheen/snap whatever.when you try and split that into allocated frequency bands the phase relationship between the asymmetric components and the high partials get skewed too far on axis (which is a bad thing sometimes with drums)cause of the group delay or in this case the partials being reconstructed via FFT.FFT has never and i doubt will ever be a good option for keeping the integrity of transients.little bias showing through there,but i personally like transients to cut like a prison shiv :D.i like a bit of group delay too and smearing,but i usually manage it with low order allpass filters and analog EQ,passing things through outboard,remiking etc (cause DC blocking circuits etc)this Spiff has too many diminishing returns and although it might give you some control over the detection,FFT block sizes and windowing are very limited in scope in what they can accomplish and "keep"especially in regards to short broadband sounds like transients

In theory for it to work sort of well you'd need to have 2 different FFT sizes for the processing that manages the sustain and harmonic part and the transient part differently.the transient part would use shorter block sizes with a more aggressive window,and (in theory) it really doesn't matter much what kind of processing you use on the sustain/harmonic element,cause if the transient seems to retain its snap,then a psycho acoustic effect will take place where it seems like the whole envelope is punchier than it actually is (acoustic kicks have this effect cause they have what is essentially DC running through the 1st millisecond or so of the envelope)tricks you into think there is more attack and
Sometimes bottom end there than there actually is.

Essentially what spiff does and even generic multiband plugins that use too high an order (12 is too high an order IMO where drums are concerned)is bring too much light to this new disconnect between the new alignment of the partials phase hence why to my very picky ears,this just sounds a bit weak and diminished in providing any kind of perception of a decent instantaneous impulse over a short window of time (a transient)it eats too much into the perception of it being "instantaneous"dynamic mics slow down transients quite a bit too,but it still doesn't force every single harmonic on axis as much as FFT would(i guess it is somewhat unnatural as anything you strike will exhibit some asymmetry at the front of the envelope based on how hard and where you strike it)in a nutshell,asymmetry is good where attack is concerned,Spiff and its ilk and high order multiband plugins ruin that IMHO,hence mushy,undefined transients that lack instantaneous snap,crack etc :tu:

Anybody else feel like "Spiff"sounds like a negative connotation? :D e.g "that mix engineer spiffed up my drum transients" or "i'm very unhappy about the spiffing he's done to them" "i hope i can undo this spiffing.....he's spiffed this mix right up"
I
tgrohn
KVRer
 
2 posts since 14 Apr, 2018

Postby tgrohn; Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:11 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

TIMT wrote:
plexuss wrote:Here's another example. I am deviating a lot from what I think is the typical use of Spiff. However it has a wide range of use and it's interesting to push Spiff into more sound design areas. In this track there are 4 tracks: 3 synth sequences and drums. the drums are unaffected through out. There are 16 bars of each: dry, wet, delta. Wet is with Spiff on each track, each dialed into the sound. Delta is with delta on demonstrating the possibilties of using the delta output as an effect.

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/sp ... le/s-5heHL


Yeah,sounds pretty cool as an effect,but as a mix plugin i'm gonna give it a pass.all the things i pointed out about lack of proper snap and stuff i've heard for myself after demoing it

I think part of the issue that stems from trying to allocate transients into narrow frequency bands for me is that transients are very broadband sounds.a lot of the times you'll find the crack in an acoustic snare for example is because of the extremely asymmetric phase of the partials creating DC like components at the very beginning on top of the partials that provide the sheen/snap whatever.when you try and split that into allocated frequency bands the phase relationship between the asymmetric components and the high partials get skewed too far on axis (which is a bad thing sometimes with drums)cause of the group delay or in this case the partials being reconstructed via FFT.FFT has never and i doubt will ever be a good option for keeping the integrity of transients.little bias showing through there,but i personally like transients to cut like a prison shiv :D.i like a bit of group delay too and smearing,but i usually manage it with low order allpass filters and analog EQ,passing things through outboard,remiking etc (cause DC blocking circuits etc)this Spiff has too many diminishing returns and although it might give you some control over the detection,FFT block sizes and windowing are very limited in scope in what they can accomplish and "keep"especially in regards to short broadband sounds like transients

In theory for it to work sort of well you'd need to have 2 different FFT sizes for the processing that manages the sustain and harmonic part and the transient part differently.the transient part would use shorter block sizes with a more aggressive window,and (in theory) it really doesn't matter much what kind of processing you use on the sustain/harmonic element,cause if the transient seems to retain its snap,then a psycho acoustic effect will take place where it seems like the whole envelope is punchier than it actually is (acoustic kicks have this effect cause they have what is essentially DC running through the 1st millisecond or so of the envelope)tricks you into think there is more attack and
Sometimes bottom end there than there actually is.

Essentially what spiff does and even generic multiband plugins that use too high an order (12 is too high an order IMO where drums are concerned)is bring too much light to this new disconnect between the new alignment of the partials phase hence why to my very picky ears,this just sounds a bit weak and diminished in providing any kind of perception of a decent instantaneous impulse over a short window of time (a transient)it eats too much into the perception of it being "instantaneous"dynamic mics slow down transients quite a bit too,but it still doesn't force every single harmonic on axis as much as FFT would(i guess it is somewhat unnatural as anything you strike will exhibit some asymmetry at the front of the envelope based on how hard and where you strike it)in a nutshell,asymmetry is good where attack is concerned,Spiff and its ilk and high order multiband plugins ruin that IMHO,hence mushy,undefined transients that lack instantaneous snap,crack etc :tu:

Anybody else feel like "Spiff"sounds like a negative connotation? :D e.g "that mix engineer spiffed up my drum transients" or "i'm very unhappy about the spiffing he's done to them" "i hope i can undo this spiffing.....he's spiffed this mix right up"


Greetings from oeksound! Just to introduce myself briefly, I'm Tommi Gröhn, the lead developer of spiff.

spiff is intended to allow a lot of creative misuse, so there will definitely be artefacts with certain settings. :) However, for transparent results when mixing or mastering, it's important to set the "decay" and "decay lf/hf" settings well below the mid position. The decay is an artificial extension of the actually detected transient, and higher values will produce "watery" results, especially when combined with high sharpness settings. Naturally, I feel now that we should have stated this more clearly.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. The transient detection itself should be very precise, especially compared to traditional time domain transient shapers that easily miss the very brief initial attack of the sound. Just keep the decay and decay lf/hf close to zero to keep things focused and transparent!
Caine123
KVRAF
 
5190 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Postby Caine123; Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:34 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

tgrohn wrote:
TIMT wrote:
plexuss wrote:Here's another example. I am deviating a lot from what I think is the typical use of Spiff. However it has a wide range of use and it's interesting to push Spiff into more sound design areas. In this track there are 4 tracks: 3 synth sequences and drums. the drums are unaffected through out. There are 16 bars of each: dry, wet, delta. Wet is with Spiff on each track, each dialed into the sound. Delta is with delta on demonstrating the possibilties of using the delta output as an effect.

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/sp ... le/s-5heHL


Yeah,sounds pretty cool as an effect,but as a mix plugin i'm gonna give it a pass.all the things i pointed out about lack of proper snap and stuff i've heard for myself after demoing it

I think part of the issue that stems from trying to allocate transients into narrow frequency bands for me is that transients are very broadband sounds.a lot of the times you'll find the crack in an acoustic snare for example is because of the extremely asymmetric phase of the partials creating DC like components at the very beginning on top of the partials that provide the sheen/snap whatever.when you try and split that into allocated frequency bands the phase relationship between the asymmetric components and the high partials get skewed too far on axis (which is a bad thing sometimes with drums)cause of the group delay or in this case the partials being reconstructed via FFT.FFT has never and i doubt will ever be a good option for keeping the integrity of transients.little bias showing through there,but i personally like transients to cut like a prison shiv :D.i like a bit of group delay too and smearing,but i usually manage it with low order allpass filters and analog EQ,passing things through outboard,remiking etc (cause DC blocking circuits etc)this Spiff has too many diminishing returns and although it might give you some control over the detection,FFT block sizes and windowing are very limited in scope in what they can accomplish and "keep"especially in regards to short broadband sounds like transients

In theory for it to work sort of well you'd need to have 2 different FFT sizes for the processing that manages the sustain and harmonic part and the transient part differently.the transient part would use shorter block sizes with a more aggressive window,and (in theory) it really doesn't matter much what kind of processing you use on the sustain/harmonic element,cause if the transient seems to retain its snap,then a psycho acoustic effect will take place where it seems like the whole envelope is punchier than it actually is (acoustic kicks have this effect cause they have what is essentially DC running through the 1st millisecond or so of the envelope)tricks you into think there is more attack and
Sometimes bottom end there than there actually is.

Essentially what spiff does and even generic multiband plugins that use too high an order (12 is too high an order IMO where drums are concerned)is bring too much light to this new disconnect between the new alignment of the partials phase hence why to my very picky ears,this just sounds a bit weak and diminished in providing any kind of perception of a decent instantaneous impulse over a short window of time (a transient)it eats too much into the perception of it being "instantaneous"dynamic mics slow down transients quite a bit too,but it still doesn't force every single harmonic on axis as much as FFT would(i guess it is somewhat unnatural as anything you strike will exhibit some asymmetry at the front of the envelope based on how hard and where you strike it)in a nutshell,asymmetry is good where attack is concerned,Spiff and its ilk and high order multiband plugins ruin that IMHO,hence mushy,undefined transients that lack instantaneous snap,crack etc :tu:

Anybody else feel like "Spiff"sounds like a negative connotation? :D e.g "that mix engineer spiffed up my drum transients" or "i'm very unhappy about the spiffing he's done to them" "i hope i can undo this spiffing.....he's spiffed this mix right up"


Greetings from oeksound! Just to introduce myself briefly, I'm Tommi Gröhn, the lead developer of spiff.

spiff is intended to allow a lot of creative misuse, so there will definitely be artefacts with certain settings. :) However, for transparent results when mixing or mastering, it's important to set the "decay" and "decay lf/hf" settings well below the mid position. The decay is an artificial extension of the actually detected transient, and higher values will produce "watery" results, especially when combined with high sharpness settings. Naturally, I feel now that we should have stated this more clearly.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. The transient detection itself should be very precise, especially compared to traditional time domain transient shapers that easily miss the very brief initial attack of the sound. Just keep the decay and decay lf/hf close to zero to keep things focused and transparent!


hi Tommi, nice if devs also get here and reply :). im still on the fence to get it or not, cause i love soothe and this one is also very nice. problem is that the watery effect is sometimes/always/often even with settings like these and i wonder how much useful it is then when you may not dial in even 50%? how much can you transparently use this plugin?

Image
DAW FL Studio Audio Interface Focusrite Scarlett 2nd Gen 18i20 CPU Intel i7-7700K 4.20 GHz, RAM 32 GB Dual-Channel DDR4 @2400MHz Corsair Vengeance. MB Asus Prime Z270-K, GPU Gainward 1070 GTX GS 8GB NT Be Quiet DP 550W OS Win10 64Bit
tgrohn
KVRer
 
2 posts since 14 Apr, 2018

Postby tgrohn; Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:38 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

Yes, the decay control (and almost all other controls) has way more range available than what would be necessary in ”everyday use”. Many of the examples I have seen or heard so far demonstrate the extreme ends of what spiff is capable of.

About the settings you have on the screenshot - you can set the sharpness and decay lf/hf to zero to minimize the ”watery” sound. If that is not enough, set the window to ”short” from the advanced tab. I would also recommend to listen to the results in context instead of focusing just on the soloed delta signal.

Have you already found the time to go through the presets? They demonstrate quite nicely the available options and can be a good starting point for further tweaking. There is also a ”full reset” setting available.
Last edited by tgrohn on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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plexuss
KVRAF
 
1964 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:02 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

For me, I have enough transient processors that sound good that I don't need another, especially at $125US intro price. I am more interested in the extreme capabilities of Spiff otherwise I might as well pass because for normal transient use it doesn't offer me anything over my existing tools. On the extreme uses of it, I can see value here because it allows for a lot more sound design capabilities. I find the artifacts mix in well to my electronic music. Might not sound as good for acoustic or miced music however, I won't be able to tell that. :phones:
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DJErmac
KVRist
 
407 posts since 25 Apr, 2009, from Fr

Postby DJErmac; Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:19 pm Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

This is the plugin I've been waiting for ! After tests and tests, this thing beats every transient plugin I own for complex tasks. For example, all the other multiband transient plugin I own failed to remove all bass plops from a bad vocal recording. Spiff succeeded. Just purchased !
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plexuss
KVRAF
 
1964 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:36 pm Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

DJErmac wrote:This is the plugin I've been waiting for ! After tests and tests, this thing beats every transient plugin I own for complex tasks. For example, all the other multiband transient plugin I own failed to remove all bass plops from a bad vocal recording. Spiff succeeded. Just purchased !


I can not find a transient plugin that has the extreme ranges Spiff has, nor the bandwidh control, or so many options for the spectral colour of the transiet processing. Sure it seems to do regular transient work with it's own sound but within the realm of others I tried like nvelope, softube, bittersweet, transgressor. but Spiff can work way outside the realms of these - yes it can get artifact-y, but frankly in the mix they sound pretty good.

I'll post a video here shortly where I will show you how once you have a transient focussed in, you can really change the colour of it to get it to fit into a mix well.
andymcbain
KVRist
 
148 posts since 10 Jan, 2017

Postby andymcbain; Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:52 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

For adding "punch" and "slap" to drums and synths in electronic music, this is turning out to be the cleanest sounding processor I've ever used. Essential purchase for me...
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DrReacto
KVRist
 
84 posts since 21 Apr, 2016, from US

Postby DrReacto; Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:42 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

DJErmac wrote:This is the plugin I've been waiting for ! After tests and tests, this thing beats every transient plugin I own for complex tasks. For example, all the other multiband transient plugin I own failed to remove all bass plops from a bad vocal recording. Spiff succeeded. Just purchased !


I agree DJErmac. I had a similar problem with bass drum leakage and the noise gate I was using kept letting little pop sounds. Some might say I should have set the gate better but I wrestled with the gate for long enough. I followed it up with spiff and it cleaned up all the pops that was being caused by the gate.

In the opposite application, I've used it to really brighten claps and noisy snares. It reminds me of an eq in this manner It allows the clap/snare to really come through and not sound clicky or poppy like some transient designers might do.
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plexuss
KVRAF
 
1964 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby plexuss; Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:43 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

I bought it yesterday. It does have that spectral FFT artifacting but in a mix I feel it blends in well enough. I think for quieter and/or acoustic music you'd have to be less agressive with it. The ability to tone-shape the transient and all the other controls both around triggering and windowing add a lot more versatility. I think its going to be something i'll use often.

However it is a CPU hog = I have a 3GHz Mac Pro 12-core with Logic and in 44.1k I can only run about 4-5 instances of Spiff in a typical project (with other modelled synths and plugins).

Some CPU optimization would be welcome!
BRoySound
KVRist
 
115 posts since 31 Jul, 2011, from London, UK

Postby BRoySound; Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

I Absolutely Love this Thing.....I needed something like Spiff for a long time....Making Presets and using it in so many different ways.....all over my Mixes Right Now....

I was thinking of Making 10 - 15 Basic Presets Free for Everyone, but then I got so much Involved that I completed around 50 Presets....Get it for a No-brainer $5

Buy Here - https://gum.co/jlTUQ

50 Templates to Clean, Beef Up, Tighten, Stereo Spread your Drums, Bass, Vocals, Guitars, Percusions, Hats, Synths and More.....Use the Depth and Decay knob to further Improve your Sounds....

See Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOFUCqWQ08
B Ray - Sound Designs Signature - Embrays - RAY
Contact - embraysdesigns@gmail.com
My Projects at http://www.youtube.com/broysound
Add Me - http://www.facebook.com/broysound
Bathrobe
KVRist
 
325 posts since 10 Oct, 2011

Postby Bathrobe; Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:53 am Re: Oeksound Spiff released!

Is Spiff best used at 96kHz, just like Soothe?
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