Best First Orchestral Library Under 200 Dollars?

[Harry_HH]

There is now one for you for $ 75, if you haven´t purchased some other library, yet.
Great quality for this price!

https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/produ ... 20373cdaf9

It's quite old (although good) and, if I remember well, demands full version of Kontakt.

EDIT: Confirmed that it requires Kontakt FULL.

Well - you can always find negative things, such as "you need Kontakt 5 full", or
"its rather old". EWQL and Vienna are old, too. Are those bad?

Come one!, $ 75 very well sampled full orchestral library with plenty of articulations, when the OP was asking something up to $ 200.
If you don´t need a orchestral library, or you have a better one already, then pass it, but if you are looking for a good quality set for very, very reasonable price, use this opportinity.
If the Kontakt is the obstacle, bad for you, but the Kontakt is nowdays more or less a "must" to have, for all serious music producers/project-studios.

[fmr]

There is now one for you for $ 75, if you haven´t purchased some other library, yet.
Great quality for this price!

https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/produ ... 20373cdaf9

It's quite old (although good) and, if I remember well, demands full version of Kontakt.

EDIT: Confirmed that it requires Kontakt FULL.

Well - you can always find negative things, such as "you need Kontakt 5 full", or
"its rather old". EWQL and Vienna are old, too. Are those bad?

Come one!, $ 75 very well sampled full orchestral library with plenty of articulations, when the OP was asking something up to $ 200.
If you don´t need a orchestral library, or you have a better one already, then pass it, but if you are looking for a good quality set for very, very reasonable price, use this opportinity.
If the Kontakt is the obstacle, bad for you, but the Kontakt is nowdays more or less a "must" to have, for all serious music producers/project-studios.

Don't get me wrong... I even have THAT orchestra library. I am just saying that, if he does not have Kontakt, then the fact that it costs $75 may not be very meaningful, since he would have to buy Kontakt too.

Regarding the EWQL Symphonic Orchestra and the Vienna Symphonic Library (I presume the older ones, not the Synchro), yes they are old, and yes they are very good (the VSL is actually more than good, IMO).

[jancivil]

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[royosho]

[Edit]
Thanks for mentioning the KH Plat price, I saw the sale because facebook now bombards me with sample library ads lol... My original post was an epic rant about what I think of kontakt now that I've bought some kontakt libraries and understand their racket, however I'm gonna rewrite a shorter version because most people won't want to read a novel.

One of the kontakt player libraries I bought was Juggernaut. In addition to Juggernaut's kontakt files, all the wav files from the library are included. So, I could literally drop all the wavs into any free sampler and the library will work exactly the same as using it through kontakt, meaning, kontakt serves no purpose. It isn't a better sampler than any other, it's just a sampler. However since, most sample library companies are afraid of me duplicating the wavs and distributing them on the internet, they usually only include kontakt files, forcing me to work only within the kontakt sampler. Such an arrangement does NOT serve the artist, it benefits sample library companies, by keeping their libraries secure, and benefits kontakt, who prey on those fears and have built a monopoly because of it. No artist should ever say it is an "industry standard", because it's nothing. It serves no purpose to an artist, it is simply a licensing service, that overprices their "free" kontakt player libraries to force consumers into buying the full version of kontakt to have access to the less expensive kontakt full libraries, since sample library companies aren't bullied into paying a ridiculous licensing fee for those. Any free sampler with round robin and velocity layers will work to play any sample library, the kontakt siphon is simply a money making licensing engine. If you have the money, it's whatever, however saying it's an "industry standard", unless you work for kontakt, or a sample library company, is free advertising for a company that doesn't have your interests at heart.

I've actually purchased the EastWest creative cloud. It's all their libraries gold version, with the close mic position added because i signed up for a year. With an educational discount it's 15 a month, less than 200 a year (half the price of kontakt). It's 20 month to month, so anyone could try it without making a commitment. Say what you will about EW, 15 a month is nothing to them, they're practically giving it away and THAT's what a company with the artist in mind looks like.

Lot's of grammar edits, to avoid confusion.

[fmr]

You clearly know very little about sampling, and basically NOTHING about Kontakt.

Saying that all samples are the same is clearly showing you are a noob. Do you really think people buy Kontakt just because they like to spend money?

Besides, no one forces sample libraries creators to choose Kontakt. They could very well choose other platforms, like ARIA (Plogue/Make Music) as some do, or UVI Workstation, as others also do. They can even choose HALion because it also has a suitable platform now. All these will protect their libraries the same way Kontakt does, because in all of these what you will get is proprietary files that encapsulate all the samples. Kontakt became the "de facto" standard" for a reason, but that reason is not that builders want to "attack artists".

If you want to work with free samples (WAV format), you can also do that, but in that case you will need a good sampler. But don't fool yourself: not all samples are the same - quite the opposite. If that Juggernaut library you mentioned sounds the same everywhere (which I sincerely doubt), that just means it was poorly programmed, nothing else.

[royosho]

I've played/recorded live acoustic/electric music, worked with hardware/virtual samplers, synths, acoustic/electronic instruments and created sampled instruments/soundfonts for close to two decades and I am a computer programmer. I know exactly what I'm talking about in terms of samplers and sampled instruments. The point of a good orchestral sampler (and any sampler really) is to initially play the sounds exactly how they were recorded. So yes, obviously wavs are supposed to sound the same in all samplers when first loaded. Not sure why you'd think differently. Anyways, samplers aren't complex tools. They're ultimately simple devices and there's no reason someone couldn't create a free universal sampler with secure licensing capabilities rendering kontakt obsolete. Thinking there's some reason kontakt is the industry standard and not mentioning what the reason is shows you have no valid reason... The reason is it's a monopoly and though it's used professionally, the majority of its libraries are sold to people with no knowledge of production because of it's accessibility and ease of use. Sample library creators use kontakt because there is no other reliable widely used universal encryption option available, until someone develops a less expensive (hopefully free) sampler with licensing compatibility. You're not understanding me anyways, I'm trying to explain that convincing someone to buy kontakt because it is an "industry standard" and that it is a requirement to produce professional music is steering someone in the wrong direction, because kontakt has nothing to do with producing good music. Producing sampled music is about the samples, not the sampler (unless you're mangling). Kontakt is simply a tool, it's a sampler, it uses algorithms to play sounds, maybe efficiently, however no more efficiently than other good samplers. However it DOES have an extremely convenient built-in marketplace to purchase said sounds. Coincidence? Or could kontakt be an addiction fueled business hidden under the guise of instant gratification, hooking the consumer into purchasing an endless stream of single file format non-transferable products with the allusion of promissory success due to the use of an "industry standard". It isn't gospel, just my opinion from my experience working with close to every virtual sampler in existence, my knowledge of computer/sampled instrument programming and the time I've spent researching/using my purchased kontakt libraries. Plus, most samplers for non-kontakt libraries are free.

[jancivil]

Doesn't matter what you think you are, this:

So, I could literally drop all the wavs into any free sampler and the library will work exactly the same as using it through kontakt, meaning, kontakt serves no purpose.

Is garbage. Kontakt has a lot of scripting capabilities and the things I buy for it exploit it. You literally have NO IDEA what you said there. It's ignorant. "I know exactly what I am talking about". No, you have no f**king clue. I for one am done reading after that. And learn how to break something up for consumption on the screen, nobody wants to read that particularly with the arrogance. Here is a breakdown of regard for your fellows, to make such a remark and seek to justify it it with a wall of tedium to plow through.

"You're not understanding me anyways" and a false statement of what people are trying to do helping your ass, spending the time to give you the best advice we can, but it's misleading because you want to reduce it to arguing industry standard or some other fiction you tossed. "Not sure why you'd think differently."
People that understand it having used it will tend to think different than this vacuous dismissive nonsense.

Forget you in future.

[fmr]

Anyways, samplers aren't complex tools. They're ultimately simple devices and there's no reason someone couldn't create a free universal sampler with secure licensing capabilities rendering kontakt obsolete.

If you were talking about the FIRST samplers (Fairlight, Emulator I) maybe, but even then, there was more than just sample playback in those. Saying that about a really complex tool like Kontakt (or Falcon, or HALion) is simply bullshit.

Thinking there's some reason kontakt is the industry standard and not mentioning what the reason is shows you have no valid reason...

What I wrote was that Kontakt is the "de facto" standard. And there is a reason for that... That's the platform the market elected. Before, there were other "de facto" standard platforms. In the 80s, it was Akai samplers (at least in Europe), for example. And those were very simple (Akai S1000 is ridiculously simple when compared to Kontakt). That's one of the reasons you could never have an orchestral library with the complexity of today's best ones built for Akai (that and the limited amount of RAM memory available).

But it isn't a monopoly. VSL has its own sample playback engine, for example. East-West (which you subscribed) also. And there is Plogue's Aria and UVI Workstation too, as I said. How can this be classified as a monopoly?

The reason is it's a monopoly and though it's used professionally, the majority of its libraries are sold to people with no knowledge of production because of it's accessibility and ease of use. Sample library creators use kontakt because there is no other reliable widely used universal encryption option available, until someone develops a less expensive (hopefully free) sampler with licensing compatibility.

Maybe those reasons are valid, but they also choose Kontakt because it manages large libraries well, was one of the first sample playback engines to allow direct-from-disk sample streaming (many sample playback engines still don't have it even today), has a powerful scripting language built-in (again, they were pioneers on that), and a very powerful synthesis engine (contrary to what you say, many users don't just playback samples, they use samples creatively, as sources for new sounds, and the synthesis engine built in the sampler is very importat. Kontakt is not the most powerful in that chapter anymore, but is still a big competitor.

You're not understanding me anyways, I'm trying to explain that convincing someone to buy kontakt because it is an "industry standard" and that it is a requirement to produce professional music is steering someone in the wrong direction, because kontakt has nothing to do with producing good music.

I donm't know what you're talking about. I never mentioned Kontakt to you. As a matter of fact, all the suggesions I gave to you either used librariers that would run in the free KontaktPlayer, or would not use Kontakt AT ALL (like VSL).

Producing sampled music is about the samples, not the sampler (unless you're mangling). Kontakt is simply a tool, it's a sampler, it uses algorithms to play sounds, maybe efficiently, however no more efficiently than other good samplers.

Bullshit again. Read above. It is not so simple as you imply (actually, it can be quite complex, although not so much as Falcon or HALion). It uses algorithms to play the sound, as any other sampler, But not all of them use the same algorithms (Kotantkt has in fact three sample playback algorithms, if I remember well). That's why they may sound so different, even when playing back the exact same samples. And the synth engine has a lot to do also. And scripting. How do you think the different articulations, attacks, expressions, round robin, etc, are managed?

And what kind of noob would use samples AS THEY ARE to play in samplers? Unless you are talking about "loops" (that's not what I think when I talk about samplers - loops for me are simply non-existant).

However it DOES have an extremely convenient built-in marketplace to purchase said sounds. Coincidence? Or could kontakt be an addiction fueled business hidden under the guise of instant gratification, hooking the consumer into purchasing an endless stream of single file format non-transferable products with the allusion of promissory success due to the use of an "industry standard". It isn't gospel, just my opinion from my experience working with close to every virtual sampler in existence, my knowledge of computer/sampled instrument programming and the time I've spent researching/using my purchased kontakt libraries. Plus, most samplers for non-kontakt libraries are free.

Bullshit again. I have Kontakt since version 1, and I don't have that many Kontakt libraries (actully, besides what comes with Komplete, I have just a couple of them). And I used and use Kontakt all the time for my own samples, and instruments I build myself. With WAV files. And which are exactly the "most samplers for non-kontakt libraries are free"? I presume you meant samples, but no, the good ones are NOT free. And there are libraries for Kontakt that also use WAV files. There are even free libraries (I have some of those too). You need to reevaluate your theories.

It's OK that you don't like Kontakt, and want something else, but IMO you will hardly find a building platform outside of the "big three" that can compete with them.

[jancivil]

However it DOES have an extremely convenient built-in marketplace to purchase said sounds. Coincidence? Or could kontakt be an addiction fueled business hidden under the guise of instant gratification, hooking the consumer into purchasing an endless stream of single file format non-transferable products with the allusion of promissory success due to the use of an "industry standard".

7 bucks

https://www.etsy.com/listing/592610941/ ... E4QAvD_BwE

[royosho]

I donm't know what you're talking about. I never mentioned Kontakt to you.

I know lol, I wasn't even responding to you're comment originally, you just answered...

Saying that about a really complex tool like Kontakt (or Falcon, or HALion) is simply bullshit.

It isn't bullshit, kontakt isn't more complex than most other samplers. It just isn't.

And the synth engine has a lot to do also. And scripting. How do you think the different articulations, attacks, expressions, round robin, etc, are managed?

And I used and use Kontakt all the time for my own samples, and instruments I build myself. With WAV files.

Exactly, I too created sampled instruments/soundfonts from wavs. When I was first learning, I'd download free kontakt full libraries, and drop the wavs into free samplers and soundfont creation programs such as tx16wx or polyphone. I'd open the kontakt files in kontakt player, 15 minutes at a time, uninstalling and reinstalling kontakt player to reference the libraries until I had created an instrument with the exact same quality using the available velocity layers, round robins, crossfading, envelopes etc built into any basic sampler. Did it have the same legato scripting capabilities as kontakt? No of course not, however that kind of scripting isn't unique to kontakt, it isn't complex and it is written from the sample library creator's side anyways. I write computer code and create actual complex, non music related computer programs, I'm not wrong about the simplicity of a virtual sampler.

For example, how are articulations, round robin etc managed? Incredibly simply. It isn't scripting magic, it's extremely basic coding. There's nothing revolutionary about it. Tx16wx, a sample player based on a super basic 80's hardware sampler, has a free version and a 30 paid version and has all those capabilities - filters/envelopes, round robin, velocity layers, articulations/crossfading, matrices etc. It does everything kontakt does, minus maybe the channel mixer. It's even multitimbral with multi-ins and outs. My point isn't that kontakt sucks, it's that it doesn't do anything special... other than possibly handling lots of samples efficiently because it's patched consistently. There's no reason, with some super basic additional coding, a sample library creator couldn't utilize a sampler like the one I just mentioned. Kontakt isn't some industry standard because of it's sampling capabilities, it's an industry standard because that's consensus, and that's the consensus because of kontakt's encryption and licensing service to sample library creation companies, and it doesn't have anything to do with helping the artist. I'm saying it's more a business than anything, and it's an industry standard for business's, not artists.

[bigcat1969]

If you've ever both scripted for Kontakt and made low end VSTis as I have you would understand the huge difference that Kontakt can have in creating instruments. Samples no, if all you want is samples, and this is part of this forum, then avoid Kontakt. If you want INSTRUMENTS then Kontakt is amazing.

In the orchestral world you simply can't place samples for every track, you play the notes in and/or you create the notes in composition software and end up with a midi file. So how are you going to translate this midi into music using your samples? Hum I have 24 tracks in my 15 minute orchestral piece. Lets go find each note for each instrument and add each one of the thousands of samples in by hand and hope it is the right volume/length/dampness. Really? You gonna create your own instruments from the samples? I do it and trust me making instruments isn't that much fun. Are you gonna edit the starts for every sample, adjust for volume variations on every sample, add release samples and good luck with that in a primitive sampler.

Seriously I've created hundreds of instruments. You have no flipping clue the work that goes into it. Go write me a functional convo reverb script and create a four velocity piano with reverb and release samples and a string section with scripts for legato, mod wheel cross fade, and on the fly chords and arps in something other than Kontakt. Get back to me with those will you?

[royosho]

Yea, it's a ridiculous amount of work with more "basic" samplers or soundfont programs, yes, every note requires envelopes, velocities, crossfades etc and since you obviously know exactly what you're talking about regarding the creation of instruments with kontakt, I'm sure there's no comparison. However it is possible with other samplers... you created instruments with grace... tx16wx is even more robust (it is capable of everything you mentioned - velocity layers, crossfade matrix, legato, multi-sample layers for chords, a sequencer for arps, reverb)... I'm not saying it's a viable alternative at the moment (because it isn't patched/updated), I'm saying the technology exists, it existed years ago, and kontakt isn't a pioneer of capability, it's a pioneer of licensing. And you're speaking about it from the library creator's perspective... However, from an artists perspective, someone other than myself, or probably other than anyone commenting, from some kid with no knowledge of programming or desire to script, is all the money kontakt collects to facilitate these processes worth it? When most likely all the artist is doing is loading up a sample library and playing it?

My main qualm with kontakt is that the free player isn't free, player libraries cost more because kontakt imposes licensing fees to force people into buying the full version. And you know what man, I used all your free vstis, and when you started making them for the full version of kontakt instead, i was sort of sad, because i couldn't use them unless I bought a $400 sampler... It was a big change from the leading developer of freeware instruments. (And you know who's fault it is? Kontakt! Because they don't allow you to create free instruments from public domain sources to use in their "free" sample player which could provide accessibility to people without a months rent to spend on the full version unless YOU pay a ridiculous licensing fee... for instruments you develop for free... my point exactly) Obviously you're not obligated to appease the freeware world, and I'm sure there's no comparison with the capabilities of creating instruments with kontakt and expecting you to work with a clunkier sampler isn't realistic, however I'm saying it is possible that eventually someone, or a group of people will create a perfectly viable replacement for kontakt, with all the bells and whistles kontakt offers regarding the use and creation of sampled instruments, and it won't necessarily cost a bunch of money to create it, because it's computer code and lot's of time, intelligence and determination. And when it's created, the cost of maintaining it won't cost the amount of money kontakt is collecting either.

[bigcat1969]

Funny thing after my little rant, I mostly agree with you. Yeah I wish Kontakt had some lesser free version that could simply play the libraries. I've watched several attempts at a Kontakt competitor free that seem to come short. Maybe HISE will. I'm probably a little defensive about Kontakt is it was my first instrument maker love. I actually started on Kontakt with the City Piano, others did the sfzs for me, and then went to Maize when I realized that so many people couldn't afford Kontakt and I could help more folks with VSTis. Still for a small dev perspective playing with Kontakt feels like say driving a sports car while Maize feels like a Hugo. You are right it is tough to see it from the artist's perspective when you are coming from the instrument creating perspective.

So much of 'worth' depends on what you 'need', I suppose. I have a buddy who samples and such who says that at this point Reverb is 90% of what sells instruments. I think he is joking. For the pros at this point legato might be what sells libraries. I'm not sure if you really need convo reverb on instruments, but it sure seems to cover up some of the flaws in PD/CC samples maybe too much. Legato seems almost a must have in strings and the like, though real legato is well beyond me. I tried Miro 2, but the engine really let it down, so that's what I think of lately when I think of Kontakt versus some of the others. A bad engine can really break you. That and my internet buddies creating with SFZ. Wow I admire anyone who will make instruments in a text editor.

Rambling again aren't I? I suppose the scripting and the interface are what might make Kontakt worth the price. Odd example I did VSCO2 vstis and some folks liked them. Sam asked if I wanted to use the scripts and GUI that Simon had created. So I created a second version (what a pain that was) with a pretty GUI, keys to show range and keyswitches, etc... and the thing became one of the biggest free deals going. The samples hadn't changed, but the look sure had. So much of this is usability and look. On a personal level I'm not that much into looks (being that I own a mirror!) and I can get by with lower levels of user friendliness (just look at my posts) and I'm guessing you are the same. So I do get it. Still it is pretty fun to kick up a really good instrument like the Dominus Choir with great scripting and make it sing (in this case literally) in ways I just don't see or hear out of non-Kontakt libraries.

If you or anyone reading this does goes Kontakt, always do it on sale. On a good summer (they don't do it every year), you can get free Drumm'ica and crossgrade up to full Kontakt for I think $125-$140 in that range. The included instruments aren't bad.

Anyway I'm rambling. Hope you have a good day and thanks for having tried out some of my stuff.

[royosho]

Yeah I wish Kontakt had some lesser free version that could simply play the libraries.

Lol, yea I edited my reply addressing this and might have gone slightly overboard (sorry) when I realized how it directly affects the distribution of your free instruments... kontakt licensing literally prevents your free instruments for reaching freeware users.

Anywho, I'll try not to dwell on kontakt anymore. Thanks for understanding I'm (mostly) not crazy, have a good day.

[bigcat1969]

If I didn't mention it, if Eastwest has a good sale you can get the old orchestra for about $200 if I remember right on one of those deals where you buy one section get 3 free or something like that. The older Eastwest might be the best bang for buck for $200 if you can catch that sale.

I don't know if I mentioned it either, but Sam is doing some pretty cool free samples and a chap is working on an automated sfz maker for them so this might give some pretty cool free stuff over the next couple years. Might be some orchestral stuff.
http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.net/ is where we hang out look at the VCSL thread. Already some cool samples there.
Also Mattias is messing around with some cool string stuff too.