Help with Tonality

[jancivil]

G7 (for example) potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode

All you have stated for this to be true is a harmony which ironically is exactly the one most likely to ruin Phrygian (as, obviously the tension in it rather begs for resolution to C major; for a newb particularly I would stay away from providing new info contextless as that).

As given it is V7 of vi. Nothing at all 'E Phrygian' about V7 of vi in E minor. It's a coincidence thru the note F, it's not more.


pet peeve of mine here, carry on.

It wasn't context less at all, although, on review, I fully accept that it was definitely too much info! :0)

I used the very careful phrase potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode as I realized that it was not a strong statement of the mode. However, other parts in the piece could easily strengthen this feel and move it beyond your 'coincidence' quite easily. V7 role...yes, I accept your point there, it doesn't exactly strengthen the Phrygian argument, but I knew that anyway! Having played through the sequence in various ways at the piano (particularly with variations in leading melodic content) I stand by the mild hint at Phrygian.

It wasn't any statement of any mode. You gave a progression of strong tonality as potentially hints at a mode. NG: Don't Work.

It _is_ a coincidence through the note F. IE: the note, F with a given E 'tonic' may suggest phrygian to all of us on a superficial simple information level. I am not, however, put in mind of E Phrygian by i V7/vi vi V in E minor in any way. It's tonal. Tonal is not modal. Here's where fmr and I agree.

If we do G7 in E Phrygian we are doing exactly the most obvious thing which would ruin the mode; we're entrained towards a dominant/tonic resolution to C. Hence, bringing in modes for tonal music or tonal music for modes is a pet peeve. I'm not persuaded and I've done what I can to convey why now.

[jancivil]

The OP has stated they want to be working in A minor but probably none of us are sure they are. So...
The notion was to do chords. The chords given don't produce tonality. OTOH: i V7/vi vi V i is tonal.
I recommend a useful distinction as we try to advise someone.

A minor with no strong tonic; is that A Aeolian? When is A natural minor not A Aeolian?
Goldenhelix considered it might be E minor. I don't have an opinion without hearing it.

If we're going to tell Young Crocket to make some chords work modally we should be prepared to give more context. I think that's fair. I advise less is more for chords if you want the feeling of a mode not to be obscured or killed outright. But if I'm in Crocket's shoes I'm probably confused by tmi.

If the idea is to make it tonal, V-i, V7-I. v-i, not so much. Other than that... we are just looking at words, let's hear it.

[marthawatson]

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.

Check out this app called Mapping Tonal Harmony. It's visual map with all the functions in tonal harmony. You can tap on the chords, create progressions and hear them. There are a lot of youtube videos that teach you about tonal harmon y while learning how to use the app. It's quite amazing. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mapping ... 67002?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mapping-tonal-harmony-pro/id566767002?mt=8)

[ChamMusic]

G7 (for example) potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode

All you have stated for this to be true is a harmony which ironically is exactly the one most likely to ruin Phrygian (as, obviously the tension in it rather begs for resolution to C major; for a newb particularly I would stay away from providing new info contextless as that).

As given it is V7 of vi. Nothing at all 'E Phrygian' about V7 of vi in E minor. It's a coincidence thru the note F, it's not more.


pet peeve of mine here, carry on.

It wasn't context less at all, although, on review, I fully accept that it was definitely too much info! :0)

I used the very careful phrase potentially hints at E Phrygian Mode as I realized that it was not a strong statement of the mode. However, other parts in the piece could easily strengthen this feel and move it beyond your 'coincidence' quite easily. V7 role...yes, I accept your point there, it doesn't exactly strengthen the Phrygian argument, but I knew that anyway! Having played through the sequence in various ways at the piano (particularly with variations in leading melodic content) I stand by the mild hint at Phrygian.

It wasn't any statement of any mode. You gave a progression of strong tonality as potentially hints at a mode. NG: Don't Work.

It _is_ a coincidence through the note F. IE: the note, F with a given E 'tonic' may suggest phrygian to all of us on a superficial simple information level. I am not, however, put in mind of E Phrygian by i V7/vi vi V in E minor in any way. It's tonal. Tonal is not modal. Here's where fmr and I agree.

If we do G7 in E Phrygian we are doing exactly the most obvious thing which would ruin the mode; we're entrained towards a dominant/tonic resolution to C. Hence, bringing in modes for tonal music or tonal music for modes is a pet peeve. I'm not persuaded and I've done what I can to convey why now.

Theory-wise, I'm NOT going to argue with anything that you say...it's a totally sound argument that I understand 100%!

But if, when I listen to it, I sometimes get a very subtle hint of Phrygian mode (despite it's clear and strong tonality) then that is what I get inside my head.

Incidentally. Just curious...

Tonal or Modal?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b95dfw1epjyv0 ... l.mp3?dl=0

[jancivil]

Unfortunately the dropbox link doesn't work here.


if you HEAR it... is another matter. I think it's an interesting idea. I heard a couple of things in film music that did mix tonal and modal. One was Thomas Newman. But the two can't happen at the same time.

[ChamMusic]

Unfortunately the dropbox link doesn't work here.


if you HEAR it... is another matter. I think it's an interesting idea. I heard a couple of things in film music that did mix tonal and modal. One was Thomas Newman. But the two can't happen at the same time.

Put it on Soundcloud for a few days:

https://soundcloud.com/chameleon-music/tonal-or-modal

[jancivil]

Definitely tonal. There's a hint of pandiatonicism.

[ChamMusic]

Definitely tonal

Agreed; (I've had a few, who should've known better, who've said 'modal' because of the heavy use of the Phrygianesque melodic motifs)!

There's a hint of pandiatonicism

Hadn't thought of that, but yes, you're right...

A certain lack of 'conventional' resolutions / 'standard' underlying harmonies as such...sorry very nebulous terms!

[jancivil]

Well, I didn't really analyze it but there is the unmistakable dominant tonic 'vibe' to use a nebulous and imprecise term.

As to my peeve, the jazz 'chord scale theory' irritates me when people take it to mean (reduction alert) to 'you do dorian on ii and mixolydian on V'.
No, if all we have is the seven notes, as ii V I is by definition tonal there is no need for three names for the one simple thing, the scale is from I by definition. Further, you could do octatonic symmetrical or any exotic scale on V, if it's V it's still V.

[tapper mike]

If you want a strong tonal center consider using a pedal tone. Or consider using a vamp. Just because your first draft had chord movement in it doesn't mean your are required to keep them.

The thing about vamps and pedal or drone tones is that it's hypnotic. You can run a long time over the same chord and then when finally a new chord appears it has a "shock" value of which you can leave at the end or resolve back to the original chord.

[jancivil]

Well here's an interesting development.

When I was starting out, the collaboration and finally a band I was involved in was neck-deep in first 'normal' chords for pop - Beatles music was the chief driver - and then prog rock where I had to sort someone's naive idea which was all based in chords, melody over chords. But in my own music it was all about <tune the low E to D for a drone, D A D1> and modal improvisation. So I found chords boring at the end of the day.

Then I took Harmony, both Diatonic and Chromatic (the former a prerequisite for the latter but I talked my way into the course anyway) at the same time; so chromatic harmony was sehr fascinating and we found some agreement with the late romantic practice and the hyper-chromatic jazz harmony. And since then, eg., the things Mike Brecker took from Coltrane, wow man wow.


I don't know what the OP is doing now with this but again someone seems to have left the building. So anything I'll type in here is for the wider consumption, any/all readers.

"Tonality" isn't fulfilled per se by 'a strong tonal center' in a drone. The chords in the OP don't amount to tonality, which again is dominant-tonic paradigm. So, where does natural minor get to really be Aeolian Mode?
With a modal approach we may find that the mode itself has enough juice all by itself to where less chords is more happening than more chords. More = Less. AND! Melody is probably more memorable than the diatonic chords.

Another procedure is a chaconne. Without getting into the weeds, difference between passacaglia and chaconne. Repeated chord progression as a *ground* and you expound on the melodic growth out of that, or a repeated bass line as a ground which may suggest specific chords or that may be more malleable.

But for your ear, I like tappermike's suggestion to reduce it to 'pedal' aka 'drone' to become grounded 'at home' securely as the OP kind of gives us something ambiguous. (On the page/for talking points I mean, we didn't hear the thing.)