Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[pdxindy]

And while you're right about effects (it still boggles my mind when I load some factory presets), then I meant this more about the raw effects, comparing them 1:1. In Live you can also chain stuff together, put them in rack, split the sounds, etc. so I guess in the end possibilities are pretty much very similar.

You cannot nest devices in Live. They only function as separate independent FX.

In Bitwig Delay, you can nest any device or chain of devices inside the feedback path of the Delay. In Delay-4, each of the 4 delay lines can have its own chain of other devices (including VST's) inside its feedback path. Not possible in Live (without having to build a complex M4L device requiring a lot of skill)

Yes, you're right - there are some clever things in some devices, like the Dynamics also being able of expansion and having a dedicated slot for FX put on the sidechain signal, which can be used for look-ahead or filtering, etc.

Still, on the whole I think Live's FX devices are more complete. I mean you can't beat the fact, that - since v10 - Live's Utility can go down to -inf dB, while Bitwig's Tool only to -36dB (or so)

heh

Here is a quick example of nested devices in Bitwig. This is a simple Polysynth sound which goes through the Delay-2 FX. I added a bit-crusher device inside the Delay feedback path along with the blur device. Being able to put any devices inside the delay feedback path makes the Bitwig delay almost unmatched in its flexibility!

https://draigathar.org/sounds/B-Delay.mp3

[elxsound]

And while you're right about effects (it still boggles my mind when I load some factory presets), then I meant this more about the raw effects, comparing them 1:1. In Live you can also chain stuff together, put them in rack, split the sounds, etc. so I guess in the end possibilities are pretty much very similar.

You cannot nest devices in Live. They only function as separate independent FX.

In Bitwig Delay, you can nest any device or chain of devices inside the feedback path of the Delay. In Delay-4, each of the 4 delay lines can have its own chain of other devices (including VST's) inside its feedback path. Not possible in Live (without having to build a complex M4L device requiring a lot of skill)

Yes, you're right - there are some clever things in some devices, like the Dynamics also being able of expansion and having a dedicated slot for FX put on the sidechain signal, which can be used for look-ahead or filtering, etc.

Still, on the whole I think Live's FX devices are more complete. I mean you can't beat the fact, that - since v10 - Live's Utility can go down to -inf dB, while Bitwig's Tool only to -36dB (or so)

heh

Here is a quick example of nested devices in Bitwig. This is a simple Polysynth sound which goes through the Delay-2 FX. I added a bit-crusher device inside the Delay feedback path along with the blur device. Being able to put any devices inside the delay feedback path makes the Bitwig delay almost unmatched in its flexibility!

https://draigathar.org/sounds/B-Delay.mp3

You mean it’s easier in Bitwig, but the same result can be created in any host using buses.

Still, it’s a very nice feature.

[Yorrrrrr]

Oh my god, Live 10 + Push 2 is such a wonderful combo. No going back to FL Studio or any other DAW with these two in my studio. Live is just a half, the other being the Push. This full integration of software and hardware is Ableton's big point in favor, along with its unique Session workflow.

[pdxindy]

Here is a quick example of nested devices in Bitwig. This is a simple Polysynth sound which goes through the Delay-2 FX. I added a bit-crusher device inside the Delay feedback path along with the blur device. Being able to put any devices inside the delay feedback path makes the Bitwig delay almost unmatched in its flexibility!

https://draigathar.org/sounds/B-Delay.mp3

You mean it’s easier in Bitwig, but the same result can be created in any host using buses.

Still, it’s a very nice feature.

No, you cannot do the same thing with buses... a bus does not let you put a device inside the signal path of another device.

[antic604]

Oh my god, Live 10 + Push 2 is such a wonderful combo. No going back to FL Studio or any other DAW with these two in my studio. Live is just a half, the other being the Push. This full integration of software and hardware is Ableton's big point in favor.

Have to agree that Push2 makes Live much, much better, although - coming back from Bitwig after several months - it's really hard to adjust to its clunkyness (like scrolling with touchpad, new automation mode, taking forever to launch & then load up devices) and weird limitations (no native multiband or mid/side splitters, modulation that takes over control of the parameter, limited bouncing/resampling options). I could go on...

...along with its unique Session workflow.

What's unique about it, compared to Bitwig? The only difference - in favour of Live - is legato clip launching mode, but otherwise Bitwig is superior, with in-group scene launching, ability to see launcher alongside arranger, clips that actually show what's inside them + their playpack status (yes, I'm aware of Live's much less informative pie-charts), etc.

[Trancit]

For me, there are many things Bitwig done better, but they failed for me in the overall aspects...

- No rex support ... this is laughable for a more or less loopbased DAW
- browser preview only works correctly if Sequencer is running... for me an absolutely no-go
Even their own clips (Clips saved with Bitwig) do not preview correctly...
- many different browser issues
- f*cked up autozooming for midi clips if you open the editor by double clicking
- while cloning Ableton, they forgot to clone one of the most useful features: the very handy little bandpass filter on top of many plugins... in Bitwig you have to insert an extra plugin...
- Ableton`s devices tap looks much nicer and cleaner... this huge plus signs take lots of space as well as their different container devices...
Ableton´s Audio and Instrument racks save much more space, which is essential for working with large chains...
- their nested devices thing can be good and bad... sure you gain flexibility but you loose oversight and things can get complicated very easily
- Many options are nested in the inspector, which constantly changes depending what you have selected...
While this might seem logical in theory does it result in endless clicking and selecting to bring this up, what you want to edit... drove me nuts...
- Their automation and macro system is quite nice in many cases but it fails completely for everything, where you need an absolute/fixed connection...i.e. you want to set a macro knob for 2 parameters in a plugin for a specific value range... fine as long as you never touch the controls on the plugin itself... as soon as you move one of the controls on the plugins GUI, the macro works relative from this point and messes everything up...
- As pointed out here: Live´s internal instruments and FX are (for me) far far better... especially with the fx you can easily drive a high quality project without using plugins
- Max for Live is a huge plus for Ableton and with V10 it became useable finally...
Having such a scripting engine included, which can affect the main app as well can make a huge difference in usuability...
EDIT: - what I forgot: I found it very weird, that in the sampler if you trigger the same note twice you are stuck with a seperate release time, which is limited to 1 second!!! WTF!!!!

There was much much more, which I cannot remember anymore... at the very end I sold Bitwig...
Good ideas, but if the base isn´t right for me...

[dellboy]

This Ableton vs Bitwig thread should be split between those who use these daws in a \dj \the daw is a synth\ ready made loop triggering fashion\ and those who do pattern based song composition.

Personally, I am not interested in ready made loops as I make my own.

For pattern based song composition, Bitwig has a very simple plus for me.This is "scene follows actions" in Live, or should I say, if it still existed in Live !

Apparently it did exist in earlier incarnations of Live but was removed for some reason.

In Bitwig its as simple as clicking in the box and telling the next scene to trigger automatically. This makes composing a pattern based song a breeze by building the song in scenes and having the next scene launch as necessary.

[antic604]

For pattern based song composition, Bitwig has a very simple plus for me.This is "scene follows actions" in Live, or should I say, if it still existed in Live !

Apparently it did exist in earlier incarnations of Live but was removed for some reason.

In Bitwig its as simple as clicking in the box and telling the next scene to trigger automatically. This makes composing a pattern based song a breeze by building the song in scenes and having the next scene launch as necessary.

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

[antic604]

For me, there are many things Bitwig done better, but they failed for me in the overall aspects...

Thanks for sharing! Interestingly, a lot of your "cons" are "pros" for me, so it's funny how things go

[Cyoon]

For pattern based song composition, Bitwig has a very simple plus for me.This is "scene follows actions" in Live, or should I say, if it still existed in Live !

Apparently it did exist in earlier incarnations of Live but was removed for some reason.

In Bitwig its as simple as clicking in the box and telling the next scene to trigger automatically. This makes composing a pattern based song a breeze by building the song in scenes and having the next scene launch as necessary.

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

I didn‘t try it yet but there are follow actions on group scene clips, which then should trigger all clips in the group in that scene in Bitwig.

[antic604]

For pattern based song composition, Bitwig has a very simple plus for me.This is "scene follows actions" in Live, or should I say, if it still existed in Live !

Apparently it did exist in earlier incarnations of Live but was removed for some reason.

In Bitwig its as simple as clicking in the box and telling the next scene to trigger automatically. This makes composing a pattern based song a breeze by building the song in scenes and having the next scene launch as necessary.

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

I didn‘t try it yet but there are follow actions on group scene clips, which then should trigger all clips in the group in that scene in Bitwig.

Sure, but that's slightly different - as you say, it's a *group* scene.
Although technically you could put your whole song into a group

[whyterabbyt]

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

Ableton doesnt have them out the box, but it looks like it can be done.

https://isotonikstudios.com/product/follow/

[dellboy]

For pattern based song composition, Bitwig has a very simple plus for me.This is "scene follows actions" in Live, or should I say, if it still existed in Live !

Apparently it did exist in earlier incarnations of Live but was removed for some reason.

In Bitwig its as simple as clicking in the box and telling the next scene to trigger automatically. This makes composing a pattern based song a breeze by building the song in scenes and having the next scene launch as necessary.

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

I do not own Bitwig, so I can only tell you what I have learnt from using the non-save demo.

But to confirm I have just made two clips, one bass, one drums. I then copied these into four scenes below,turned off loop for each scene. I then set three scenes to play next and the last to play first. This took me less than two minutes. The same action in Live has to be accomplished either with a convuluted "group clip" workaround, or a paid for - "Max for Live" addon.

So whatever you want to call it, it automatically plays the next scene. Bitwig is superior in this regard.

I have just checked, and "max for live" does not come with Live 10 standard, although it is now integrated into the program as a paid for extra. All extra complicated stuff that Bitwig does easily.

[dellboy]

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

Ableton doesnt have them out the box, but it looks like it can be done.

https://isotonikstudios.com/product/follow/

Yes, this is what I found out also after wasting time trying to hunt down an answer.

Extra expense, and a worse solution to boot.

[deastman]

Err? Both DAWs are missing SCENE follow actions, both have CLIP follow actions.

Ableton doesnt have them out the box, but it looks like it can be done.

https://isotonikstudios.com/product/follow/

Oooh nice! I never noticed that option before.

I haven’t really thought through the logic, but if you had follow actions on both scenes and clips, which one would take priority? I could imagine there being a conflict in logic there, unless one always overrides the other.