Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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msvs
KVRian
1185 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Post Tue May 15, 2018 6:50 am

you are wrong
and neither we can copy/paste them.
of course you can copy paste OSCs... just rightclick on the Tab
And you can't have stereo.
of course you can, each Chorder voice has a panning dial

guys, I really love discussing with you, but please: try out before writing something obviously wong. I dont have the time to explain the most basic things over and over, which could have been tried out, watching the videos or reading the manual. My opinion is: our Unisono in combination with v-saw, chorder, vibrato per voice or just OSC stacking in combination with our various mod sources is already very versatile and easy to use at the same time, and I dont see the point changing this, or make it unecessary complicated :wink: Sure, they can be room for 1 more control, for example the Spread (lin/log) or something like this, furthermore we will take a look into the panning of the vsaw when using 2,4 and 6 voices. But overall we think the v-saw sounds great.
Is there a way to imitate the Moog multidrive sound that is produced by the Subsequent 37 in Avenger?
I dont know that "multidrive sound". However, Avenger has various possibilities to add drive... as insert FX (6 different types), as Shaper (lot of different algorythms) or in the Filter module. Shaper is even per voice, the other 2 are global.

yellowmix
KVRian
702 posts since 11 Aug, 2012

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Tue May 15, 2018 9:21 am

Is the English manual going to be updated? Last version on the site is 1.1 from December 2016, while the German version is at 1.2 from October 2017.

ilalin
KVRer
23 posts since 2 Mar, 2015

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Tue May 15, 2018 10:08 am

In defense of the instrument it's also important to mention that we on average, strive for an instrument that is tweakable but also relatively simple to understand and that is where Avenger succeeds among many others on the market.

tapekiller
KVRer
21 posts since 6 Nov, 2014

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 2:08 am

msvs wrote:you are wrong
and neither we can copy/paste them.
of course you can copy paste OSCs... just rightclick on the Tab
I was talking about knob values, I know I can duplicate OSCs since I've been talking about it in the rest of the comment, but now I'm not even sure if you've read it in its entirety.
msvs wrote:
And you can't have stereo.
of course you can, each Chorder voice has a panning dial
It does have a pan dial, but you can't put something on the right side when the general pan is set to the left, therefore that's not a viable solution. Furthermore panning the main OSC on one side and the added voice to the other produces the same effect the 2 voice unison does, which I already explained in the previous comment (both voices on one side, and the main one on the other). So again no, that's not a solution.
a solution would be being able to disable the main voice and use ONLY chorder ones, so i can have control over each voice position without being tied to a general pan (which happens to be the case in your answer, but as already said it's like panning right something routed to a bus that goes left).
The unison is a narrowed down version of the chorder with increasing multipliers (let's say something like

Code: Select all

detune*(2nx+x)
where x is the max width for voices 2 and 3, and n is 0 for voices 2/3, 1 for voices 4/5 and 2 for voices 6/7. Something similar for pan I presume, but I'm not sure how to measure pan position on the overall sound.

I've done my fair share of experiments with it, and I think working with the synth at least 5 hours a day qualifies as "try out". I'm sure it's not your intention but that comes across as rude and uncalled for because I feel treated like a clueless retard just because you rightfully are proud of your synth and have to defend the features as they are when nobody is actually attacking them.
I only said that the 2 voice unison puts the synth out of tune, and the spread moves only the added voice to one side instead of moving both individually, if that's how the feature is supposed to work I'll just get over it but please try to understand that a customer that spent 200 euros on the synth (twice) deserves to speak their mind and possibly give feedback about the features without being called out for not trying and just be labelled as "wrong".

User avatar
msvs
KVRian
1185 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 3:15 am

- the "copy OSC" includes all of the knob values, so...
- You can have a 2x detune, by just opening 2 OSC tabs and detune and pan them independently however you want it.
- you can clone your OSCs very easily by using the above mentioned "copy the OSC to another tab" feature

tapekiller
KVRer
21 posts since 6 Nov, 2014

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 7:36 am

msvs wrote:- the "copy OSC" includes all of the knob values, so...
- You can have a 2x detune, by just opening 2 OSC tabs and detune and pan them independently however you want it.
- you can clone your OSCs very easily by using the above mentioned "copy the OSC to another tab" feature
So everything I said has a boiled down answer that just tells me to use a new oscillator, basically forcing me to copy the oscillator every time i do a minor tweak... which basically means being unable to hear changes directly since I would be working on one single side at a time. Not to mention that it's more cpu hungry.
Don't you see how detrimental that can be for the workflow? And that's just for two voices, imagine 4. And while the macro section keeps their parameters linked even if I overwrite an oscillator with the copy of the main sound, if I want to add a macro for specific values I have to do it twice, or four times depending on the number of the voices (but at least in the macro section i can type in numeric values, unlike all other knobs).

Let me be clear, I'm grateful for the synth and I definitely don't want to come across as hostile, but I don't want to be treated as an idiot either by watching you making the assumption that I talk without even testing, and so far most of the feedback I've been trying to give is almost being ignored.
On the other hand you suggest I use several oscillators as a workaround, using more cpu and requiring me to take a lot more time to do a very simple task that literally any synth with unison can do in a very simple way.
Given that this is your approach to someone expressing how dreadful the unison is for certain types of sound, I guess I can only try to come to terms with it.
After all, to me it doesn't seem so surprising nor exceptional to ask if there is ever going to be a unison that by design doesn't move the overall sound out of tune (because of course if you add a lower voice the beating frequency is also lower than the original sound) and that has actual panning instead of having only the added voice that moves to one side. Nobody is asking you to change it completely because that would be stupid. It's just that the classic unison is a lot more versatile, doesn't put the sound out of tune (therefore doesn't need fixing every time I want to increase or decrease detuning) and above all allows me to hear the changes as soon as I make them, which is really important imo.
Anyway, I'll attach a preset of the "workaround" for anyone interested.
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jmg8
KVRAF
1712 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 8:23 am

Tape killer. I completely agree with everything you have said. It seems to me that MSVS is not even properly reading your posts and just giving you quick answers without really thinking much.

My opinion is that this synth is very advanced in most areas compared to other synths. However it is the other way round for the unison.
Considering that unison is used so much in synthesis I find it odd that the unison in Avenger is not a lot better.

MSVS - Please take a look at Tapekillers findings and consider adding a few additional features to the unison to at least bring it up to the level of the competition. Even better would be to make it better than the competition, like the other areas of Avenger. Using additional OSC is NOT a viable solution and goes against what Aveneger is all about, which is to be fast as f**k! :)
i7/16gb/win10,64bit/Live9/MTotal. + Surface Pro 4 (i5)

User avatar
msvs
KVRian
1185 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 9:19 am

I already gave the answer on the previous pages somewhere. We will take a look at the panning with 2/4/6 Unisono in the future.

A problem for example with the 2x Unisono is the following: Many other Synths do not have a Mix slider in the Unison, they switch hard to the new setting. But we have!
So we Mix (add) the Unisono Signal to the original (centered) voice. This is good for just having "a little bit of Unison". So far so good... but in case of 2x Unisono it would have to change the panning and the pitch of the original voice, too. Its no longer just a mixed/added signal.
This would require some major changes in our signal code to work. Its way more work for this little "detail" than you would expect. Also, phase problems could occur, especially with 4 or 6 - we dont know yet. But we will take a look if its feasible, when its time. At the moment we are still working on other things. The most easy thing would have been, just to omit 2/4/6 or the MIX slider from the beginning, (then we would have no discussion now) but we wanted to give you the possibility to select them. I often used 2x in many patches for example, without problems, you can easily compensate if necessary.

jmg8
KVRAF
1712 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 10:14 am

Thanks for taking the time to give a more detailed answer.

A solution for you regarding the mix parameter:

2X would simply disable the parameter, basically, it would have no effect.

4X would treat the inner two voices as the centre and the mix parameter would change the level of the outer two voices

6X would treat the inner two voices as the centre and the mix parameter would change the level of the outer four voices

etc etc.
i7/16gb/win10,64bit/Live9/MTotal. + Surface Pro 4 (i5)

godly
KVRian
786 posts since 22 May, 2013 from Gent, Belgium

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 10:28 am

yellowmix wrote:Is the English manual going to be updated? Last version on the site is 1.1 from December 2016, while the German version is at 1.2 from October 2017.
I think on the tempo it is changing a wiki would be better
Also interesting to add some more info on some functions or filters.
My sounddesign: Synth1/Ex5/D-50 patches https://goo.gl/zE3pkk
My stuff: W10x64i7 15" laptop, Reaper/Cantabile3+Synth1+Avenger on stage+NordStage2+Samson Graphite 49
Loving new VPS Avenger! Check my skins! https://goo.gl/MBNJHj

Hanz Meyzer
KVRian
799 posts since 20 Oct, 2014

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 10:53 am

Hi msvs,

I have a little feature request: When you change the inner circle of a knob, for instance the decay curve, currently the knob stays in the last position of the movement after mouse-button-up. Wouldn't it be much more convenient and logical, if the knob then jumped back to the outer ring value? Because of the current behaviour, it constantly "ruins" the outer circle value, if you are changing the inner circle value.

User avatar
msvs
KVRian
1185 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 11:01 am

2X would simply disable the parameter, basically, it would have no effect.
I am no friend of this solution. There must be a better way. We will find out.
Furthermore it must stay backwards compatible to old presets, which may have used the MIX
I have a little feature request: When you change the inner circle of a knob, for instance the decay curve, currently the knob stays in the last position of the movement after mouse-button-up. Wouldn't it be much more convenient and logical, if the knob then jumped back to the outer ring value? Because of the current behaviour, it constantly "ruins" the outer circle value, if you are changing the inner circle value.
Sorry, I do not understand

Hanz Meyzer
KVRian
799 posts since 20 Oct, 2014

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 12:59 pm

msvs wrote:Sorry, I do not understand
Ok, see this graphic:
Artboard 1.jpg
1. Decay is at lowest position

2. Decay curve is increased by holding down Strg and left mouse button

3. Mouse button is released. The knob stays in that position.

4. The decay now is changed only by one pixel. Still it will now be very huge, having the knob position of the decay curve.


Instead I would like to suggest that the knob jumps back to the decay position (at 3), so it actually again reflects the real decay value.

(Sorry for the image size, no retina support here it seems)

EDIT: Or maybe the knob shouldn't rotated at all while changing the decay curve?
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jmg8
KVRAF
1712 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 1:36 pm

The knob doesn't move for me while moving the inner dial.
What did you mean by "Strg and left mouse button"
To change the inner dial, it is typical to use right mouse button.
i7/16gb/win10,64bit/Live9/MTotal. + Surface Pro 4 (i5)

User avatar
msvs
KVRian
1185 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Re: Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - free 1.3.5 update with new features

Post Wed May 16, 2018 1:43 pm

I still dont get it, sorry
Nothing moves here. I use the right mouse button to rotate the inner dial, so you will have no conflict with the accidentally pressed left mouse button (?)

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