Need Upper Frequencies Help Desperately

[wagtunes]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

Making music isn't the same as recording it. Breaking "the rules" musically wont help you if its then badly recorded/mixed.

Except who's to say when something is badly recorded? There was a time when you didn't dare put a distortion on a guitar. Had you done it during that era, it would have been called "badly recorded."

Again, who makes these arbitrary rules?

Because that's what they are. Arbitrary rules.

[Unaspected]

Does it sound cool or not? That's what decides. Or maybe it takes an influential person to say something is cool before others copy and it becomes a thing. I don't think we're talking about rules when we talk about taste though.

But this sort of issue is a great example of specifically why different people are historically in charge of different facets of making recordings.

Absolutely. And we tend to gravitate towards the aspects of production that we enjoy.

[vurt]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

Making music isn't the same as recording it. Breaking "the rules" musically wont help you if its then badly recorded/mixed.

Except who's to say when something is badly recorded? There was a time when you didn't dare put a distortion on a guitar. Had you done it during that era, it would have been called "badly recorded."

Again, who makes these arbitrary rules?

Because that's what they are. Arbitrary rules.

they are indeed arbitrary rules.
and, far be it from me to tell anyone not to break the rules.
however, like in life, breaking rules can lead to consequences.
if your track is aimed at a particular market, then don't be surprised if breaking some arbitrary rules of that particular market, puts off some listeners.

not every broken rule leads to a fluke that starts a movement. otherwise id have movements coming out of my ass. so to speak.

[wagtunes]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

Making music isn't the same as recording it. Breaking "the rules" musically wont help you if its then badly recorded/mixed.

Except who's to say when something is badly recorded? There was a time when you didn't dare put a distortion on a guitar. Had you done it during that era, it would have been called "badly recorded."

Again, who makes these arbitrary rules?

Because that's what they are. Arbitrary rules.

they are indeed arbitrary rules.
and, far be it from me to tell anyone not to break the rules.
however, like in life, breaking rules can lead to consequences.
if your track is aimed at a particular market, then don't be surprised if breaking some arbitrary rules of that particular market, puts off some listeners.

not every broken rule leads to a fluke that starts a movement. otherwise id have movements coming out of my ass. so to speak.

So ultimately, what you're saying is these "rules" are what they are either through trial and error or market research that determined what people who like that genre like in general about the recordings in that genre.

That I can accept. And yes, if I break those rules I guess I have to expect those who are into that genre to protest my breaking of the rules. Unless of course I come up with something they think is cool. Then, ironically, IT becomes part of the rules.

Okay, I get it. I'm not saying I like it or that it's not frustrating as hell (your horns are too loud) but I get it.

So unless I'm just recording for myself, I have to put up with this.

I guess it comes down to your priorities.

[Unaspected]

So ultimately, what you're saying is these "rules" are what they are either through trial and error or market research that determined what people who like that genre like in general about the recordings in that genre.

That I can accept. And yes, if I break those rules I guess I have to expect those who are into that genre to protest my breaking of the rules. Unless of course I come up with something they think is cool. Then, ironically, IT becomes part of the rules.

Okay, I get it. I'm not saying I like it or that it's not frustrating as hell (your horns are too loud) but I get it.

So unless I'm just recording for myself, I have to put up with this.

I guess it comes down to your priorities.

That's it. I think it's valuable to pay attention to criticism and use it to improve where viable but don't be a slave to it. However, if the criticism is unexpected, that might be an important area for focus.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

If people followed rules then metal, punk, grunge, industrial, etc etc etc wouldn't exist.

Take metal for example, the guitar and drums completely dominate over the lead vocal whereas in pop it's the opposite.

These were conscious decisions, though. It wasn't because of a fault in some producers hearing that the guitars and drums in metal were the dominant force. And while punk was rough as hell at pub gigs, 'Never Mind The Bollocks' was produced by people who knew exactly what they were doing i.e they knew the rules well enough to know how to break them.

Making music isn't the same as recording it. Breaking "the rules" musically wont help you if its then badly recorded/mixed.

Exactly!

[andrelafosse]

Whenever I think about "conventions of appropriate levels for instruments in a mix," and the willingness to break them, I always think of My Bloody Valentine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIIuNhF5E_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Ig71fhUc8

[BertKoor]

If you already have all the high tracks (shakers, hihat, tambourine) on one bus, you could insert a pitch shifter there just for mixing purposes. Transpose them down by an octave (or one and a half) and it will come into your audible range. Just for setting the levels... For the final mixdown disable the pitch shifter ofcourse.

[wagtunes]

If you already have all the high tracks (shakers, hihat, tambourine) on one bus, you could insert a pitch shifter there just for mixing purposes. Transpose them down by an octave (or one and a half) and it will come into your audible range. Just for setting the levels... For the final mixdown disable the pitch shifter ofcourse.

But will adjusting the pitch give me the true volume of the instrument? Won't pitch shifting alter the volume as well?

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Whenever I think about "conventions of appropriate levels for instruments in a mix," and the willingness to break them, I always think of My Bloody Valentine...

Again, we are talking about different things.

[wagtunes]

Whenever I think about "conventions of appropriate levels for instruments in a mix," and the willingness to break them, I always think of My Bloody Valentine...

Again, we are talking about different things.

Okay, then let's talk about what the difference is between having a tambourine at 3 db as opposed to 4 db.

[BertKoor]

If you already have all the high tracks (shakers, hihat, tambourine) on one bus, you could insert a pitch shifter there just for mixing purposes. Transpose them down by an octave (or one and a half) and it will come into your audible range. Just for setting the levels... For the final mixdown disable the pitch shifter ofcourse.

But will adjusting the pitch give me the true volume of the instrument? Won't pitch shifting alter the volume as well?

Not its absolue volume, but the perceived volume can be somewhat too loud (around 3dB for each transposed octave)
It's better than not hearing anything at all, so do some experiments with it.

[thecontrolcentre]

Whenever I think about "conventions of appropriate levels for instruments in a mix," and the willingness to break them, I always think of My Bloody Valentine...

Again, we are talking about different things.

Okay, then let's talk about what the difference is between having a tambourine at 3 db as opposed to 4 db.

Its 1db quieter ...if its too loud or too soft is up to the mixing engineer. Musically its irrelevant (tambourines aren't likely to be a critical element in a track).

[Mushy Mushy]

I really cant fathom how this conversation is 6 pages long. As the artist it is completely your discretion how loud the tambourines are.

[thecontrolcentre]

I really cant fathom how this conversation is 6 pages long. As the artist it is completely your discretion how loud the tambourines are.

Its a Wagtunes thread ... could go on for weeks yet.