A dream hardware controller for soft synths?

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Thanks miclop - replied over in your hardware thread.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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So this is my own very crude layout of a dream controller:

Image

2 8" ish touchscreens side by side (actually don't really have to be touch sensitive). 3 translucent strips on which sit physical knobs and faders. The screens provide the labelling, and also help with the layout. An Osc section might be in one subtle colour shading, while a mixer might be different. It would be possible to group controls vertically or horizontally to make best use of the available space for each synth, as the synth's architecture dictates (again, see the pic on the OP to see this sort of thing in action, it's really simple but effective). Should be possible to label round the controls themselves under the translucent strips, and have graphical feedback above the controls.

Small to medium synths would fit all on a single layer, medium to big on two, really big on three.

In theory, the raw materials wouldn't be all that expensive, a good target sale price might be $300-$400.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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I think something like this mockup would be close to my ideal synth controller, it would probably be quite expensive to produce though. Those oscillator labels are just an example, ideally those would be lcd's that would change according to what synth you have selected.

But the problem also lies with the implementation of certain plugins, for example you can't change the waveforms of oscillators via midi in Omnisphere and Avenger (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but hopefully the new hardware synth integration in Omnisphere gives us a way to change the waveforms via normal midi commands.
SynthControllerLayout2.jpg
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There's some nice ideas there, Sam, but a few issues stand out. First - while some empty space is a good thing, that's a vast expanse of nothing and IMO form factor is too important an issue to allow for that. Second - the vast array of 23 knobs across the top in an unbroken line is really unappealing. Third - there's often no visual feedback - filter type would be feedback-less, all the FX parameters are unlabelled etc. Fourth - there's a lack of flexibility in areas like the envelope, many synths have additional controls (eg polarity).

Again, it highlights that it will be very difficult to please everyone with a controller. IMO my simpler but more dynamic design would be better suited to a greater array of synths with far better visual responsiveness and should be cheap to build. But you will disagree and therein lies the problem.

Also, no comments in 48hrs from it won't encourage any developers who happen to chance across the thread to be rushing to explore this market. I just have a feeling that while for some of us a synth controller seems like an obvious slam dunk, I do wonder if it is really quite a marginal market.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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Yesterday, a friend came round to jam. He has an Akai MPC X:

Image

The thing about the Akai is that it is designed to be self-contained, so it has solutions to browsing etc. built-in. While not prefect, it's pretty tasty in that you have a touch screen interface combined with knobs and switches. It's missing a bit off feedback IMO for what the individual knobs/pads are linked to (LCD screen would be nice). It's also missing faders (knobs only) and doesn't have a dynamic layout. It would be nice to have separate modules, e.g. with 16 pads, 16 knobs, 8 faders, transport controls etc. that you can mix and match.

If the touchscreen interfaced with the DAW, providing access to the plugins' UIs - and maybe even the DAW mixer and piano roll - now that would be pretty interesting.

I do think that any forward thinking controller needs to have a means of naming the knobs etc. dynamically, so you know what you are controlling, and allowing mappings to easily be shared. Then you can fire up any layout and immediately begin controlling the plugin. Having to set everything up manually and remembering what knob controls what is half of the pain of working with MIDI controllers IMO. Especially when, as has been pointed out, even similar types of plugins have different controls.

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On my search for a mouth-controlled sustain pedal I came across these:

http://www.daemonbite.com/midi-controll ... moon-me80/

http://www.daemonbite.com/dsi-tetra-midi-controller/

He seems to have been working on a prototype with the intention of selling, but from the look of the comment section that may not be on the cards.

He seems like the right guy to maybe get interested in some kind of project :shrug:

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noiseboyuk wrote:There's some nice ideas there, Sam, but a few issues stand out. First - while some empty space is a good thing, that's a vast expanse of nothing and IMO form factor is too important an issue to allow for that. Second - the vast array of 23 knobs across the top in an unbroken line is really unappealing. Third - there's often no visual feedback - filter type would be feedback-less, all the FX parameters are unlabelled etc. Fourth - there's a lack of flexibility in areas like the envelope, many synths have additional controls (eg polarity).

Again, it highlights that it will be very difficult to please everyone with a controller. IMO my simpler but more dynamic design would be better suited to a greater array of synths with far better visual responsiveness and should be cheap to build. But you will disagree and therein lies the problem.

Also, no comments in 48hrs from it won't encourage any developers who happen to chance across the thread to be rushing to explore this market. I just have a feeling that while for some of us a synth controller seems like an obvious slam dunk, I do wonder if it is really quite a marginal market.
Yes, the layout is far from ideal and a final design would be a lot more compact, but I just put this together on a spreadsheet to show the idea of different sections where you can switch between Osc 1, 2,3, Envelope 1, 2, 3, 4 etc.

I don't necessarily disagree with your idea it looks quite interesting as well but am I right to assume that the plugin developers then would need to add code to support that controller?

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For me, the first really compelling controller was the Continuum Keyboard which I can't even afford.
Now, the MPE thing with the Linnstrument, for MPE-enabled Note Expression with synths which are capable of doing something with it. The '5 dimensional' thing, too.
The thing I CAN afford appears to be optimized for an iPhone and needs firmware revision to work right on a real computer. ROLI lightpad.


Knobs and pushing keys down, meh, any old thing will do for me, I cheap out on it. Oxygen 8, you know.
Maschine looks cool, but I'm not shelling out bucks for it. I'd rather a Zendrum for drumming. I see why y'all want a 'browser' but I'm only doing one thing at a time.

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jancivil wrote:The thing I CAN afford appears to be optimized for an iPhone and needs firmware revision to work right on a real computer. ROLI lightpad.
I'm not so interested in the Lightpad, but the Roli Rise is a game-changer for me :love:

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timbesamusca wrote:Yes, the layout is far from ideal and a final design would be a lot more compact, but I just put this together on a spreadsheet to show the idea of different sections where you can switch between Osc 1, 2,3, Envelope 1, 2, 3, 4 etc.

I don't necessarily disagree with your idea it looks quite interesting as well but am I right to assume that the plugin developers then would need to add code to support that controller?
It should be configurable in the way with Miclop proposal is, when the synths respond to either midi CC or NRPN. A simple set up mode where you just assign a control a name, values and parameter, with the option to have graphical elements assigned to particular values (so for a square wave you'd get the graphic not a meaningless number 3 or whatever it happens to be). So a console could come ready set up with some of the bigger synths, and then users could add their own, share in a user community etc.

But I did think that it would be amazing if a developer actually supported it more actively, it might then be possible with some synths to go a step further with modulation. As it is, it's hard to see any hardware controller being better at this than a soft synth. But if you had push-down knobs, I love the idea that you could push down on two knobs at the same time - LFO depth and OSC1 pitch, say - and it create a modulation link. Or push and hold puts a control into assign mode, and the next push down is your destination or something. I'm pretty sure that would need serious developer support though.

One other thing that the Studer Vista does (that broadcast desk whose picture is in the OP), is that it has a mode where you click on a section (say Aux sends) and it expands to cover others for more detail. It's pretty seamless. But that might be good for the bigger synths - if it has a lot of parameters in its Osc section for example like Omni which has granular / unison sections etc - it would be a neat way of keeping that stuff out of sight but accessible.

The more I think about it, the more perplexed I am that nobody has used the Studer Vista model in any other audio product. It's just perfect, and cheap. Touchscreen, translucent strips, physical controls - that's it. When using a Vista, you have no concept that you are using a touchscreen, its just a brilliant desk that is very clear and easy to use for anyone used to traditional controls. Only when you remove all that stuff laid on top is it exposed as a bunch of screens running Windows (in that case) and the illusion is shattered. This controller I'd imagine would be Linux.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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I've used the Vistonics concept in anger many times and I can vouch for it. It's use on the VI 7000 is particularly good. The Vista too (but let's not talk about the underlying software on that desk..ahem)

Vistonics is a fine thing indeed and I agree with Guy on this... and what's more it's really strange that it's not taken off as a concept in the pro audio desk industry either outside of Soundcraft/Studer (which is the same company).

The concept of soft-screen/hard knob overlay...what's not to like when you have large amounts of parameters to navigate?

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Amen pinki!

When the Vistas were first built, that hardware must have been expensive, but of course was part of a very expensive desk anyway. Now screens are cheap as chips, and offer massively more than LCD strips. Maybe the lack of enthusiasm here is simply to do with people never having met the concept before, and not realising what a powerful combo it makes.

If there were enough enthusiasm, I'd look into at least doing a few mockups somehow then sending to some possible devs. But it's obviously not worth the bother if there isn't a real groundswell of support, and that would mean a broad agreement of the direction of travel. The super-rough sketch above of mine I don't think is quite there - I think maybe it actually needs a third screen, smaller than the others and vertically oriented, on perhaps the RHS so the screen's height would be the same as the others, just half the width. This would make the unit a bit wider (I think long and thin is most practical for use with master keyboards). This 3rd screen would be a touch screen pure and simple with no overlay. This would be for menus, perhaps choosing between setups, and an XY pad.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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I looked up a video of a Studer Vista desk and that does indeed look very intuitive. Something like that would also make for a great daw controller (mixer, plugins, sends etc.). I could imagine that if Studer would release something like that as a daw controller (even just the screen with the encoders would be amazing already) that it could become a pretty successful alternative to the dozens of Mackie Control based units out there.

I wonder if it would be viable to create some custom software that would kinda mimic the behaviour of such a Studer Vista desk and to then run it on a cheapish Android or Windows tablet, but then the challenge remains to somehow mount the encoders over the screen.

Maybe some of us who would really want such a controller should pool our resources together and see if something like this is achievable! :)

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Guy,

I also saw that you are experimenting with Lemur, have you heard about these: https://www.pepperdecks.com/products/28-tunagear

I'm not sure though if they can turn endlessly or if they are just potmeters with endings on both sides but if they are endless then maybe the knobs in lemur could somehow be programmed to act as relative controls with proper parameter feedback of course.

Edit: They seem a bit fidgety though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA8C9VwgAMk

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I don't think it would need anything proprietary from Studer. One of the most appealing things about the concept is its simplicity. In terms of the nuts and bolts required under the hood, there wouldn't be any difference between the Miclop device and this one - it's just knobs and a touchscreen at the end of the day, and all they have to do is convert the knobs into NRPN or Midi CC data, and display parameters, simple graphics and colours.

I don't know enough about such things, but essentially I'd have thought what is needed for a prototype is a Raspberry Pi type device, 2 (maybe 3) screens and some controllers and plastic. I'd guess that the problem with customising an off the shelf android device would be controlling the extra screens, but perhaps there's a way. The other thing is I'd be 100% for a USB connection, not wifi.

Which brings us to Lemur. It's been a great experiment, but I've not been able to retain a reliable connection in Windows 10 (fine on the Mac). So sadly for me, it's only ever going to be a sideshow. but others might well be more lucky with their systems and configurations then me. Nevertheless, I'm hoping to do a video once Omni 2.5 is out of Beta to show how well it does - or doesn't - work.

EDIT - meant to say those Tunaknobs are kinda cute, but they'd always need moving between each configuration and I just have a feeling it would be slightly clumsy in practice.
http://www.guyrowland.co.uk
http://www.sound-on-screen.com
W10, i7 7820X, 64gb RAM, RME Babyface, 1050ti, PT 2023 Ultimate, Cubase Pro 13
Macbook Air M2 OSX 10.15

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