KVR Audio

alexpander · Post by **alexpander** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:22 pm

fmr wrote:
alexpander wrote:
fmr wrote:
alexpander wrote: In these pictures you see triggered kick drum samples (sample based oscs) without free running oscs. I'm not talking about phase shifts or free-running oscillators, but quite simply timing. The cause is the internal timer of the instrument or the buffer transfer between DAW and instrument.
But aren't the samples modulated in any way? Are they naked samples that are simply read by the sampler and played back, without any modulation at all? Which sampler is it, BTW?
Of course not! Yes, they aren't modulated at all.
The first one is reFX Nexus, the second one is Parawave Rapid. Nexus is well known for its sample inaccuracy, however I can't cope with the incoherency. Rapid especially pulls the bounced notes forward(!) and nobody seems to mind but me.
Well, one is a ROMpler (and a very old one, with a very old engine). The other is basically a wavetable synth. Maybe you should try with something like Kontakt, or even simpler, like TAL Sampler

Kontakt and TAL-Sampler are spot on, however I like to use Nexus as well as Rapid for time critical elements as well and just wondering how others cope with it. I think it has nothing to do with age but rather with the technical design of the plugins.

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:08 am

First in the -very- long list of StiX features was to make it sample accurate. So I understand OPs concerns, as they are similar to mine. I can't imagine an instrument dealing with rythm not having the tightest possible synchro. Ymmv.

Synthman2000 · Post by **Synthman2000** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:08 am

This can be an issue in some music. When the producer deems so. At that stage sampling and triggering using a sampler or audio in DAW timeline is the solution.

moshimoshi · Post by **moshimoshi** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:12 pm

Are you sure the DAW might not be causing this? I had awful spongy timing issues in a lot of DAWs (Logic and Ableton were the worst in my experience, I'm currently very happy in Pro Tools but I'm sure there are others that work well). Turning off PDC can help a lot in my experience.

To people saying you don't need this - you're absolutely wrong. Good timing is essential and you just don't understand/know what you're missing if you can't achieve it.

alexpander · Post by **alexpander** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:19 pm

moshimoshi wrote:Are you sure the DAW might not be causing this? I had awful spongy timing issues in a lot of DAWs (Logic and Ableton were the worst in my experience, I'm currently very happy in Pro Tools but I'm sure there are others that work well). Turning off PDC can help a lot in my experience.

Unfortunately not. Nexus as well as Rapid have got a bad timing in Logic, Cubase, Live, Studio One or Bitwig.
At least on a Mac this seems to be an instrument related problem. It varies with tempo and buffer size, however I couldn't figure out a formula when to use which buffer size to improve timing.
As I said reFX is aware of this and told me that Nexus "is not meant to be used as a drum computer".
I wish Parawave would get going and bring an update for Rapid. I'm irritated that nobody notices this. Every Rapid user on a Mac should have swallowed transients, wrong timing and can't cut audio bounces on the grid.

moshimoshi wrote:To people saying you don't need this - you're absolutely wrong. Good timing is essential and you just don't understand/know what you're missing if you can't achieve it.

Word!

alexpander · Post by **alexpander** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:25 pm

I would be happy if more users complained about this issue in a support ticket to give it more relevance.

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:10 am

Just out of curiosity, is the jitter in timing related to the buffer size? The buffer size of the DAW might be different than the buffer size of the plgin though...
If it is related, try to sync your tempo to the buffer size, so that a beat is an exact multiple. If in that case the delay is constant, you can report that to the developer. They simply start the sample at the beginning of a buffer frame...
I bet if corrected it wil eat more cycles of the CPU...

_al_ · Post by **_al_** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:26 pm

@ OP
Agreed! This is a pet hate of mine, and first noticed it years ago when i discovered sonar 8.5 wasn't playing back my automations exactly the same every time i pushed play.
I want my songs to sound the same every time i push play, unless i specify otherwise. If a synth or sampler can't do that, then it's no use to me, because the delicate frequency balance of the song will be subtly different every time i replay from the start.

I seem to remember synthedit (or synthmaker) plugins being exceptionally bad for this

moshimoshi · Post by **moshimoshi** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:58 pm

alexpander wrote:
moshimoshi wrote:Are you sure the DAW might not be causing this? I had awful spongy timing issues in a lot of DAWs (Logic and Ableton were the worst in my experience, I'm currently very happy in Pro Tools but I'm sure there are others that work well). Turning off PDC can help a lot in my experience.
Unfortunately not. Nexus as well as Rapid have got a bad timing in Logic, Cubase, Live, Studio One or Bitwig.
At least on a Mac this seems to be an instrument related problem. It varies with tempo and buffer size, however I couldn't figure out a formula when to use which buffer size to improve timing.
As I said reFX is aware of this and told me that Nexus "is not meant to be used as a drum computer".
I wish Parawave would get going and bring an update for Rapid. I'm irritated that nobody notices this. Every Rapid user on a Mac should have swallowed transients, wrong timing and can't cut audio bounces on the grid.

I see - interesting.. I wasn't aware that individual plugins could be responsible for this. Maybe I'm just lucky with the ones I use.

alexpander · Post by **alexpander** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:22 pm

Tj Shredder wrote:Just out of curiosity, is the jitter in timing related to the buffer size? The buffer size of the DAW might be different than the buffer size of the plgin though...
If it is related, try to sync your tempo to the buffer size, so that a beat is an exact multiple. If in that case the delay is constant, you can report that to the developer. They simply start the sample at the beginning of a buffer frame...
I bet if corrected it wil eat more cycles of the CPU...

Regarding Nexus the jitter is related to the tempo, not the buffer size per se. On the other hand there is no jitter with e.g. 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 120, 150 or 200 BPM. Changing the buffer size alone doesn't change jitter.
Regarding Rapid no matter what I tried (tempo or buffer changes) timing is always messed up and especially moved forward...

Let's talk about sample inaccurate virtual instruments...