8DIO - My experience

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Post Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:31 am

Yes and no. nothing.

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:31 am

will check as soon as i get a break ;-)
phreaque wrote:
topaz wrote:If you are looking for a sloppy out of time sounding string library, fill yer boots.

Noise artifacts fine. sloppy timing & unedited samples not.
phreaque wrote:A little advise, what defines an instrument is those little noises artifacts and nuances, without them it would just sound robotic, lifeless and artificial...
You're right, if it's about rhythmic timing surely it sucks. Btw, have you tried to simulate that issue in Kontakt standalone being fed by external sequencer? or virtual midi cable? It could be some plugin buffering size compatibility setting issue that occurs when using Ableton.

elxsound
KVRAF
4567 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:06 am

topaz wrote:will check as soon as i get a break ;-)
phreaque wrote:
topaz wrote:If you are looking for a sloppy out of time sounding string library, fill yer boots.

Noise artifacts fine. sloppy timing & unedited samples not.
phreaque wrote:A little advise, what defines an instrument is those little noises artifacts and nuances, without them it would just sound robotic, lifeless and artificial...
You're right, if it's about rhythmic timing surely it sucks. Btw, have you tried to simulate that issue in Kontakt standalone being fed by external sequencer? or virtual midi cable? It could be some plugin buffering size compatibility setting issue that occurs when using Ableton.
Its not the host/sequencer. It's the samples and the way they utilize random round robin. Once you play something fast and/or a note repeatedly fast, the issues become apparent.

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am

indeed, the problem is the same in cubase pro 9.5 as well as live and reaper.

it's 8DIO's messy sampling and scripting that is the issue.


elxsound wrote:
Its not the host/sequencer. It's the samples and the way they utilize random round robin. Once you play something fast and/or a note repeatedly fast, the issues become apparent.

brainzistor
KVRist
286 posts since 9 Jun, 2015

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:57 am

bmanic wrote: No.. that's not at all a good analogy but it's probably the one that makes you feel better and allows you to twist the narrative. :uhuhuh:
Stop being laughable.
It was a perfect analogy because I saw him a weak ago bashing and trashing Kontakt without even knowing what Kontakt is, then he appears on forums complaining about unnamed sound library and not even explaining what was the actual problem.

Now, when you are absolute beginner and completely clueless about Kontakt, of course that you CAN'T fix anything but you are persistent that everything should be 100% perfect and to work perfectly out of the box.

However, you'll find mistakes in crap load of other libraries and you simply need to have at least basic knowledge of working in Kontakt to be able to fix those problems, to tweak presets.

Then, we have another guy here showing up:
topaz wrote: Cellos , programm a fast 16th ostinato.
By the way it’s acknowledged by 8DIO. I made a YouTube video to demonstrate.
Compared to Hollywood strings they are utter rubbish when it comes to fast passages.
What these 2 people have in common?
Both are completely clueless about working in Kontakt.

One sample is playing out of time? Big deal, go into Mapping Editor in Kontakt, find sample, go into Wave Editor and nudge to the right starting point for that sample, test it, if it's fine, overwrite the f...ing preset. Rocket science? I don't think so.

But no, he's gonna f...ing play it for 20 minutes on stream and like:"Look, I bought sound library, it has a mistake, look, look" and the fact is that he could have fixed that problem 200 times by that time if he knew how to do the most BASIC things in Kontakt.

Look at this, another "expert":
mcbpete wrote:I totally hear it - It's like it's not quite getting samples in time almost randomly. Does the same thing happen on the export / freeze&flatten ?
It has NOTHING to do with rendering, latency, DAW, anything.
You have for example 5 samples. Round robin is playing them randomly and one of them is playing out of time. You need to fix the starting point of that sample in Kontakt.

These mistakes happen so often and many things can go wrong.
For example, if you take 18th string preset in Symphobia, pizzicatos and then you line up A3 notes,
you will CLEARLY hear that one sample is playing out of time. But, you will find actually many notes in that preset playing out of time, but let's stick to just one, A3.
If you analyze why is that happening, if you pay close attention you will hear that the musician hit the string with finger first and then strum it. This caused a noticeable delay in milliseconds which you can hear and that's why that note, A3, has that out of time note appearing randomly.

Then, when you have hundreds and thousands of samples and you batch edit them all, you delete white space, silence before samples, that thing goes unnoticed because technically everything starts on time, but in reality, what our ears hear, that's not the case, there is that note playing out of time.

I started using Kontakt back in 2005/06 and this same problem was appearing in numerous sound libraries throughout years. Go play low strings spiccato preset in Metropolis Ark, SAME THING.

Now, let's go and try things in different DAW's:
topaz wrote:indeed, the problem is the same in cubase pro 9.5 as well as live and reaper.
it's 8DIO's messy sampling and scripting that is the issue.
Messy scripting? What do you do know about messy sampling and scripting when you are not capable of doing the most basic things in Kontakt? You even went to try things in different DAW's which is like...insane.


You detected the note that has a problem and instead of going to Wave Editor in Kontakt to nudge the starting point of that one sample which is causing the problem, you went to play one ostinato for 5+ minutes and you think that you are knowledgeable guru who knows what messy sampling and scripting is,
while not even knowing to do the most basic operations in Kontakt?

You people, ignorant snowflakes, will buy sound library for let's say $200 or $500 and you will not even spend 20 seconds onto fixing something like just nudging the start point of sample, but you'll go online and trash talk about developers, companies and sound libraries while owning the Kontakt and NOT knowing anything about except just loading presets into it.

Even worse, you won't even use that library because, well, f**k it, it's broken.

Then all of you will use the argument: I paid for it and it should work.

Well, guess what snowflakes, go into music store and buy guitar for $150-200 and you will need:
1. to change strings
2. to set up the action, lower down strings or raise them up, but in 99% of all cases you need to lower them down
3. tuners are bad, you'll need to change them
if and IF you want that guitar to properly work. You bought brand new guitar for $150 and it's not working properly, it needs tweaking. Even if you buy guitar for $1000, that guitar needs tweaking too.

However, you buy some sound library for $100-200 and you all act like:"I bought it, I gave my money, it should 100% work" and you DON'T even want to spend JUST ONE MINUTE to fix something, to tweak something if there is a problem.

You are all Mozarts, Beethovens, Bachs, composing classical music while if I gave you my violin or guitar you wouldn't even know how to f..ing tune them properly.


For the record, I'm not some 8Dio fanboy. I don't have a single sound library of 8Dio.

It's not about 8Dio, Spitfire Audio, ProjectSAM, Cinesamples, whatever,
it's about ignorant snowflakes, especially MIDI keyboard warriors and synthesizer snowflakes who are accustomed that everything should work perfectly out of the box and they have a plug & play mindset.

Real musicians, especially those who play string instruments live in an imperfect world where instruments are not perfect and where nothing is perfect and where things need to be tweaked all the time, starting with tuning your instrument and changing f..ing strings all the time.

That's why synthesizer snowflakes when they are faced with imperfection they are experiencing f...ing panic attacks.
That's why at VI Control you have crap load of synthesizer snowflakes who will bash Spitfire Audio all the time JUST BECAUSE Spitfire Audio likes to implement imperfection in their sound libraries and instruments, because synthesizer snowflake is accustomed that his instrument is not creating imperfection.
They never tweaked anything in their life, they are not changing knobs, keys and faders on synthesizer,
they are not tuning it before playing it. NOTHING. Plug & play.
Then, they go into DAW and face the real instrument that needs to have some sort of imperfection,
they are experiencing panic attacks because:"I hit the key and I want the pure sound".
Then they go online in their MIDI keyboard warrior mode and start bashing and trashing developer, company and products like:"Dear Spitfire Audio, I don't want to hear that pedal noise, I don't want to hear the nail scratching the piano key, boo-hoo, you are trash".
The only thing you can say is:"F..ck off synthesizer princess".

The rant is over, bye.

User avatar
Nielzie
KVRAF
8974 posts since 28 May, 2005 from Netherlands

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:21 am

brainzistor wrote:
bmanic wrote: No.. that's not at all a good analogy but it's probably the one that makes you feel better and allows you to twist the narrative. :uhuhuh:
Stop being laughable.
It was a perfect analogy because I saw him a weak ago bashing and trashing Kontakt without even knowing what Kontakt is, then he appears on forums complaining about unnamed sound library and not even explaining what was the actual problem.

Now, when you are absolute beginner and completely clueless about Kontakt, of course that you CAN'T fix anything but you are persistent that everything should be 100% perfect and to work perfectly out of the box.

However, you'll find mistakes in crap load of other libraries and you simply need to have at least basic knowledge of working in Kontakt to be able to fix those problems, to tweak presets.

Then, we have another guy here showing up:
topaz wrote: Cellos , programm a fast 16th ostinato.
By the way it’s acknowledged by 8DIO. I made a YouTube video to demonstrate.
Compared to Hollywood strings they are utter rubbish when it comes to fast passages.
What these 2 people have in common?
Both are completely clueless about working in Kontakt.

One sample is playing out of time? Big deal, go into Mapping Editor in Kontakt, find sample, go into Wave Editor and nudge to the right starting point for that sample, test it, if it's fine, overwrite the f...ing preset. Rocket science? I don't think so.

But no, he's gonna f...ing play it for 20 minutes on stream and like:"Look, I bought sound library, it has a mistake, look, look" and the fact is that he could have fixed that problem 200 times by that time if he knew how to do the most BASIC things in Kontakt.

Look at this, another "expert":
mcbpete wrote:I totally hear it - It's like it's not quite getting samples in time almost randomly. Does the same thing happen on the export / freeze&flatten ?
It has NOTHING to do with rendering, latency, DAW, anything.
You have for example 5 samples. Round robin is playing them randomly and one of them is playing out of time. You need to fix the starting point of that sample in Kontakt.

These mistakes happen so often and many things can go wrong.
For example, if you take 18th string preset in Symphobia, pizzicatos and then you line up A3 notes,
you will CLEARLY hear that one sample is playing out of time. But, you will find actually many notes in that preset playing out of time, but let's stick to just one, A3.
If you analyze why is that happening, if you pay close attention you will hear that the musician hit the string with finger first and then strum it. This caused a noticeable delay in milliseconds which you can hear and that's why that note, A3, has that out of time note appearing randomly.

Then, when you have hundreds and thousands of samples and you batch edit them all, you delete white space, silence before samples, that thing goes unnoticed because technically everything starts on time, but in reality, what our ears hear, that's not the case, there is that note playing out of time.

I started using Kontakt back in 2005/06 and this same problem was appearing in numerous sound libraries throughout years. Go play low strings spiccato preset in Metropolis Ark, SAME THING.

Now, let's go and try things in different DAW's:
topaz wrote:indeed, the problem is the same in cubase pro 9.5 as well as live and reaper.
it's 8DIO's messy sampling and scripting that is the issue.
Messy scripting? What do you do know about messy sampling and scripting when you are not capable of doing the most basic things in Kontakt? You even went to try things in different DAW's which is like...insane.


You detected the note that has a problem and instead of going to Wave Editor in Kontakt to nudge the starting point of that one sample which is causing the problem, you went to play one ostinato for 5+ minutes and you think that you are knowledgeable guru who knows what messy sampling and scripting is,
while not even knowing to do the most basic operations in Kontakt?

You people, ignorant snowflakes, will buy sound library for let's say $200 or $500 and you will not even spend 20 seconds onto fixing something like just nudging the start point of sample, but you'll go online and trash talk about developers, companies and sound libraries while owning the Kontakt and NOT knowing anything about except just loading presets into it.

Even worse, you won't even use that library because, well, f**k it, it's broken.

Then all of you will use the argument: I paid for it and it should work.

Well, guess what snowflakes, go into music store and buy guitar for $150-200 and you will need:
1. to change strings
2. to set up the action, lower down strings or raise them up, but in 99% of all cases you need to lower them down
3. tuners are bad, you'll need to change them
if and IF you want that guitar to properly work. You bought brand new guitar for $150 and it's not working properly, it needs tweaking. Even if you buy guitar for $1000, that guitar needs tweaking too.

However, you buy some sound library for $100-200 and you all act like:"I bought it, I gave my money, it should 100% work" and you DON'T even want to spend JUST ONE MINUTE to fix something, to tweak something if there is a problem.

You are all Mozarts, Beethovens, Bachs, composing classical music while if I gave you my violin or guitar you wouldn't even know how to f..ing tune them properly.


For the record, I'm not some 8Dio fanboy. I don't have a single sound library of 8Dio.

It's not about 8Dio, Spitfire Audio, ProjectSAM, Cinesamples, whatever,
it's about ignorant snowflakes, especially MIDI keyboard warriors and synthesizer snowflakes who are accustomed that everything should work perfectly out of the box and they have a plug & play mindset.

Real musicians, especially those who play string instruments live in an imperfect world where instruments are not perfect and where nothing is perfect and where things need to be tweaked all the time, starting with tuning your instrument and changing f..ing strings all the time.

That's why synthesizer snowflakes when they are faced with imperfection they are experiencing f...ing panic attacks.
That's why at VI Control you have crap load of synthesizer snowflakes who will bash Spitfire Audio all the time JUST BECAUSE Spitfire Audio likes to implement imperfection in their sound libraries and instruments, because synthesizer snowflake is accustomed that his instrument is not creating imperfection.
They never tweaked anything in their life, they are not changing knobs, keys and faders on synthesizer,
they are not tuning it before playing it. NOTHING. Plug & play.
Then, they go into DAW and face the real instrument that needs to have some sort of imperfection,
they are experiencing panic attacks because:"I hit the key and I want the pure sound".
Then they go online in their MIDI keyboard warrior mode and start bashing and trashing developer, company and products like:"Dear Spitfire Audio, I don't want to hear that pedal noise, I don't want to hear the nail scratching the piano key, boo-hoo, you are trash".
The only thing you can say is:"F..ck off synthesizer princess".

The rant is over, bye.
I might be wrong, but aside from the technical discussion of imperfections in sample libraries, I think the main problem for the OP was that the developer said that they had another library that would suit the user better, but that they where not supportive enough to let him exchange the license to that other library for free.
None are so hopeless enslaved as KVRians with GAS.

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:30 am

There are 100s of samples that would need editing if that was the only issue.

The man problem is the KSP scripting that is causing random (YES RANDOM) samples to go out of time.

So let me guess you want me to learn KSP language and hacking so I can get into 8DIO's password protected script and fix their issues while editing 100s of poorly made samples right ?

:clap:
brainzistor wrote:
topaz wrote: Cellos , programm a fast 16th ostinato.
By the way it’s acknowledged by 8DIO. I made a YouTube video to demonstrate.
Compared to Hollywood strings they are utter rubbish when it comes to fast passages.
What these 2 people have in common?
Both are completely clueless about working in Kontakt.

One sample is playing out of time? Big deal, go into Mapping Editor in Kontakt, find sample, go into Wave Editor and nudge to the right starting point for that sample, test it, if it's fine, overwrite the f...ing preset. Rocket science? I don't think so.

But no, he's gonna f...ing play it for 20 minutes on stream and like:"Look, I bought sound library, it has a mistake, look, look" and the fact is that he could have fixed that problem 200 times by that time if he knew how to do the most BASIC things in Kontakt.

elxsound
KVRAF
4567 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:45 am

Well, at least everyone is on the same page that there is an issue with their libraries.

Yes, it would be hundreds of samples to correct.

What's easier than batch processing, is not buying their products in the first place because there are other, better options available than the sloppy work they peddle.

These issues should have been fixed before release or fixed after they were made aware of the issues.

Buying guitars is another dumb analogy just like buying a BMW. Seriously, why do you need an analogy in the first place? You are on niche site, in a niche subforum topic regarding an issue that not everyone has discovered.

Its not like you go to a BMW seller and then use an analogy involving a Kontakt library to describe what you like about the car to the dealer. :dog: If that seems pointless, guess what else was pointless.

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:46 am

Hey dude it is 1000s of samples not one, and you don't think I already tried to fix the issue myself, I loaded 100s of samples into RX trimmed, batch re-saved but still the timing is all over the shop. and actually the start of notes RANDOMLY being cut off.

Go and buy the library for yourself and see. it's called Adagietto.
brainzistor wrote:
One sample is playing out of time? Big deal, go into Mapping Editor in Kontakt, find sample, go into Wave Editor and nudge to the right starting point for that sample, test it, if it's fine, overwrite the f...ing preset. Rocket science? I don't think so.

But no, he's gonna f...ing play it for 20 minutes on stream and like:"Look, I bought sound library, it has a mistake, look, look won" and the fact is that he could have fixed that problem 200 times by that time if he knew how to do the most BASIC things in Kontakt.

bigcat1969
KVRian
1343 posts since 30 Jul, 2013

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:34 am

Every developer makes mistakes, trust me even when dealing with a fraction of the samples that 8Dio and the other big guys deal with I make lots of mistakes. The sheer number of samples in modern orchestral virtual instruments has also increased so much that each sample isn't looked at as closely as when you had a couple dozen samples for a whole string section. Also much of the cutting of samples is automated or outsourced in some form. The top developer at 8Dio isn't cutting the samples.

That said some developers are more careful, test better and are more responsive than others. I love the sound of 8Dio strings and when I saw a double sale on adagio and the like I grabbed them at for me still a high price. I loved the sound, but was disappointed by the usability. They updated to a cleaner virtual instrument which was available for free if you had all of adagio and adagetto or some such. This was improved but still far from perfect. Looking at the various forums this is sadly a common complaint about 8Dio along with overly high prices. This is why, I believe, 8Dio isn't held in the same regard as Spitfire or Orchestral Tools.

Based on the price, lack of return or exchange possibility (common in most VSTs), some problems being fixed in version 2 of the product, in a sense, and not fixed in version 1, and the potential for excellence that is sabotaged by sloppiness, I think it is fair to warn folks that 8Dio products should be viewed with caution.
Image

GearNostalgia
KVRist
244 posts since 28 Dec, 2017

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:13 am

Thank you all. It is nice to see tha majority of a forum reading and understanding my main position and taking up arms against the Trolls. Personally I have an 8Dio kind of policy in this regard "zero feeding trolls policy" and plain ignore them. What amaze me most about this whole affair is that it took me "a noob with zero Kontakt programming skills" and a fairly rubbish piano player just 10 minutes to play enough chords ans scales to stumble into not one, but like a dozen of notes that sounded bad. It really blew my mind that they had gathered all those great singers to record them and not picking that up and resampling so atleast all notes was consistent. And second as somebody pointed out that 8Dio did not even in the slightest make an effort to keep me as a customer. No trade in, no agreeement to sell my license - not even a discount to buy any of the product the suggested would suit me better. I live in the dillusion that I am a fair guy that is pretty easy to please with a compromise. I could even have accepted that "choirs" are hard to sample and will not get any better and swapped over to something entirely different and artifact free like say a piano. But as I have stated, they did not even care to try and make me the slightest offer. That is something I have never encountered from any kind of firm in any business before. I strongly dislike this and will stay away for firms like this.

On a much more positive note. I bought Kontakt just for this library and just a few days before they launched their summer sale. The graceully offered me to pay the difference on the sale. So I really scraped the barrel and upgraded to Komplete11 now. That is how you treat and make loyal customers. BTW I love Una Corda. Did not know it existed before the upgrade. Great instrument.

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
15332 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:03 am

I know exactly what to do in dealing within Kontakt for everything mentioned. I don't think I should be doing the work (of, eg:*) when it's a paid professional product.

The analogy of a cheap guitar needing setup is funny; it means someone failed to set the guitar up just like it does with *the bitone holding over. We got onto the track of a too slow-speaking spiccato, now the topic somehow is people don't know what to do with Kontakt under the hood? (And "snowflakes" - take your mindless rightwing buzz term and shove it, pal.)

Sometimes, yes, we find a perfectly cromulent articulation and we want to cut into the attack or control round robins. That isn't the issue at all, but it served as a launch point for going off. That isn't collegial in the least, it wasn't called for so I felt free to address it for what it is.

I think it's good to know that 8DIO is putting out choirs with definite musical problems inherent in the profuct and (as is their style, IME) then arguing it's normal.

bigcat1969
KVRian
1343 posts since 30 Jul, 2013

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:34 am

Note that I received it free for review purposes, but Dominus (while a specialty choir) is now the choir by which I judge all others especially when I hear that they can't be sampled well. Choirs and choral groups can be sampled very well and it is sad to see some that aren't and yes it is good to know which ones aren't well done.
Image

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:05 am

Tried one more time to get decent sound fast shorts with adagietto and agitato
and they sound absolutely terrible compared to hollywood strings or any symphobia shorts.

May as well free up some disk space and delete them as unusable.

Also inside every single separation instrument they have tons of empty groups from other instruments making the whole structure a complete copy & paste mess.

User avatar
topaz
KVRAF
4184 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K

Re: 8DIO - stay away from them!

Post Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:10 am

I noticed they have just pushed out ostinato strings and are really labouring how great they are at short fast strings, it would be like rubbing salt in the wounds if they also didn't also have sloppy timing like the others.

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