Midi controllers & synths with bi-directional rotary & fader value indicators for automation ?

[alec.tron]

Heya,
I'm looking to fuel my GAS, so I'm looking for options for a control surface (be it a USB and/or midi controller only, or a full synth) that does allow to record automation through a pod/fader, and see the recorded automation/values on the encoder themselves directly somehow (for pods, lights around the knob seem to have become the only practically available solution, whereas for faders [in DAW controllers ] there's motorized faders usually and a few new ones that do have light strips next to touch faders).

What I have found so far ( blue = discontinued [greys fail as hex @ kvr seemingly]):

Midi controllers with bi-directional value indicators:
Akai APC 40 Mk2
Behringer BCF2000
Behringer BCR2000
Behringer Motor 49 (with LED rings around rotary encoders as well as 8 motorized faders)
Behringer Motor 61 (with LED rings around rotary encoders as well as 8 motorized faders)
Behringer X-Touch Mini
Behringer X-Touch
Livid CNTRL:R
Livid Code
Livid Ohm 64/Slim ?
Midi Fighter Twister
Novation 25 SL MkII
Novation 49 SL MkII
Novation 61 SL MkII
Novation ZeRO SL MkII
Softube Console 1 Mk 2

Touch Fader Strips with LED lights:
Livid Base II (8 touch fader strip)
Livid Minim (a single touch fader strip from the looks)
Maschine Jam (potentially ? not sure if the touch strip level indicators, as they are used inside Maschine, can be used universally and/or bi-directionally for any Midi message... but given NI's history and how locked off core functions are on purpose in their gear, I doubt this very much)

Synths / Master keyboards:
?

Touch/iPad/Android:
Lemur (worked - but unfortunately a pain to set up on windows, and Liine has not been showing signs of support in years)
TouchOSC - probably visualizing midi automation as well (?)



TBD/WIP/demos:
Mine / Mine S - modular controller, has a rotary w LED ring, but their Kickstarter seemed to have failed
http://special-waves.com/





Whereas only for the Softube Console I know for sure does show the automation values bi-directionally)on the lights around each poti, but all the others, I am unsure...
So if you have first hand experience that this works for any of the others, please confirm/deny!
And if there's other gear that you can think of [having both USB as well as old school 5-pin midi (in,out & maybe even thru) would be a plus but no requirement, I can do with either], where you can record automation, and see the automation on the control itself on playback [universally that is - not with a single hardware-software requirement a la Komplete Kontrol / Push], please sing out too if you can think of anything that would fit the description!

Churs.
c.

[alec.tron]

Adding another few finds.

Midi controllers with rotary encoders & value indicator lights:
Livid CNTRL:R
Livid Code
Livid Ohm 64/Slim ?

Touch Fader Strips with LED lights:
Livid Base II (8 touch fader strip)
Livid Minim (a single touch fader strip from the looks)
Maschine Jam (potentially ? not sure if the touch strip level indicators, as they are used inside Maschine, can be used universally and/or bi-directionally for any Midi message... but given NI's history and how locked off core functions are on purpose, I doubt this very much)


TBD/WIP/demos:
Mine / Mine S - modular controller, has a rotary w LED ring, but their Kickstarter seemed to have failed
http://special-waves.com/

c.

[UltraPortamento]

Maybe something that should be mentioned is that a lot of those controllers are discontinued, and finding a reasonably priced one on the used market can be kind of tricky.

[alec.tron]

Have you tried any and can confirm that dynamic cc/automation is shown on either of them's LEDs ?
But yea, all the Livid's ones are discontinued, minus the Base II, which is still on sale on their website.
Churs.
c.

[7blanche]

Interesting post. I also was on market for MIDI controller with bi-directional rotaries & led feedback. The best was BCR2000 and I think it is still available. I've colored it black and changed to MOOG knobs. And it looked very cool. I got idea from this picture:




Now I have Launchpad Mini & X touch Mini going through Bome Midi translator as a single MCU controller. Perfect for me.

But yeah int the market there are only a few, and most of these controllers are discontinued, including Novation Nocturn, Novation Remote Zero SL. But since when is X-Touch mini discontinued ?

Probably the best at the moment would be Akai APC MK2

Also LEMUR on Android or IOS was perfectly for me, without any problems.

[alec.tron]

Nice re-case-ing job!
And good spotting - when I checked the X-Touch mini was listed as not available on one of the main sites... but looks like it is. So took the blue off it again

And I find it interesting that so few people are interested in seeing this on their controllers, as it does help to get away from screen for me...
And since the BCR & x-touch mini are among the likeliest to test this with for VCV - can you confirm that BCR & X-Touch mini do indeed show automation on their LEDs on DAW playback ?

The Akai APC MK2 I quite dislike the layout off for my needs... Ideal would probably be the cntrl/r, code & twister fighter... but all of them are on the expensive side for 'just' a controller...

As for the Liine/Lemur issues, see:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6&t=492145
http://support.liine.net/customer/porta ... idi-at-all
which seems to hit some, not all, but if it does, there's no support from Liine, despite them still selling their product/app... which I find questionable at best, seeing there's a good amount of people with the same issue.

c.

[7blanche]

Yeah, I agree and I do not know why there are so many crappy controllers and so few good ones.

From users posts I've read that Livid Code had some sort of delay problem when fast turning the knobs, but I've never had one. Always wanted CNTRL:R but damn it was expensive.

I can confirm that you get full led feedback from DAW with BCR or X Touch mini. I have used succesfully with Cubase, Ableton and Reason. I think Reaper, last time I tried, did not have bi-directional support (except for MCU). With BCR you can setup everything, especially using the editor. X touch mini has its limitations, for instance, when youre on Layer1, Layer2 does not update when changing in DAW, and the MCU mode is crippled (for that I used Launchpad Mini as MCU to compensate)

Ahhh Liine Lemur Daemom problems. I do not have those since I use wired connection. Daemon is not even installed. For iOS there is an app Midimux, but Android supports MIDI through USB cable natively.

[alec.tron]

Aight good to know, thanks!
Unfortunately my Android tablet was never updated to Android 6... which is where wired midi was enabled only (thanks Lenovo...! :/)
And iPad I was too stingy/annoyed by Apples' surcharge on accessories. 60$ for a 'camera connection kit' for me olde ipad (i.e. the official apple pricing over here), aka a USB cable, is just bonkers & so far off the charts that I'm not quite willing to support such sillyness / politics from Apple...

Where did you see that about Livid Code, in case you remember ?

Churs.
c.

[7blanche]

Yeah, I'm also annoyed by Apple's overpriced accesories. However, iPad does not need the "camera connection kit" to send MIDI, just the standard usb lightning cable and the midimux app for 2 USD but you also can buy the studiomux app which additionaly can send also audio through USB

here is the link https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/midimux ... 33945?mt=8

Regarding Livid Code there were several posts on Gearslutz. This might be one of those:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... -midi.html

[Samplecraze]

I use the Novation SL61 MK2 and it does the lot! And the keybd action is very good for a controller at this price bracket.

[alec.tron]

Cool, thanks for chiming in! I had the old mk1 Novation Remote sl25, but that didn;t have the LEDs... looks like that came with the mk2 versions...
So I'll add in
Novation 25 SL MkII
Novation 49 SL MkII
Novation 61 SL MkII
Novation ZeRO SL MkII

To the first post, in case this helps other people looking for similar things; and maybe it inspires manufacturers to add some feedback mechanism into their controllers... who knows...
Cheers.
c.

[WasteLand]

i have the novation 49 sl mkii, and the novation zero sl mkii. it works perfectly. i also have a MCU, which, with cubase, also can be used as a bi-directional remote controller for plugins (vst/vsti). 2 dedicated controllers (or 3..); spark creative drum machine (the old one) and maschine mk3/maschine jam.

to complete the setup i also have a nektar panorama p1, which is very good. alas, it works perfectly well for reason (10), with great support (many full mappings) from the community, but for cubase 9.5 pro (the only DAW that i own/have...) the implementation is outdated, but still usefull. i had contact with nektar, and they said, that they working on it.... for other DAW's i do not know how the implemention is, for bitwig there is pretty new one, including an editor.

(a also have a novation remote 49 sl compact which still works fine, sometimes, with extremely diverse parameters and synth programming, i hook it up)

p.s. i sometimes use the maschine mk3 as drumpad controller, but i never used it as a midi-controller. i do not know if it is bi-directional in that mode. with maschine 2.7.6 (and older version) you have NKS control bi-directional.

the NKS keyboards, the komplete kontrol keyboards, are also bi-directional. and many manufacturers are implementing NKS.

automap of novation, does not need an version of a vst/i, as does the nektar panorama p1 (but they use different approaches).

so, with 7 controllers, i have the hardware feel, the tactile response i always wanted. working with a mouse, i am not used to anymore, but for some things, a mouse and screen are better.