Fathom announces Fractal Reverb

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Post Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:59 pm

Nielzie, Thanks for your comments, Good ideas on the colors.

tonedef71, No there will never be any pop-ups, like you said, that can cause problems.

jmg8, Ok I recorded your ideas. I like the idea of having the oscillator page buttons light up to indicate which page you are on, very good idea, and I really should have thought of that to begin with.

Yes, I plan on adding a user color picker for the graph function colors.

Subterfuge, Thanks for detailed test results, that is really helpful. I’m glad to hear the CPU improvements are also effective in Windows 10.

Most of the settings I tried to make global. Meaning that if you change the setting and close the settings page and then close the Fathom GUI, it will save them to Fathom.xml. Then if you open the Fathom GUI on another track the new settings should be displayed. Also, when you open any host project the settings will be loaded into Fathom from the host data block instead of the external Fathom.xml.

The reason I did this is that going to disk before the Gui opens has caused some problems on hosts, and I wanted to keep that operation solid and not screw with it.

So the bottom line is that if you notice any scenarios where you change the settings and they are not present on a different track then report your steps here since it could be a bug. Just remember that the settings are saved when you close the GUI.

Some of the settings are tied to the preset: Master Pitch Range, Samples Note Ramp and Mono Note Tap Return. But all the others should be global. Hope that makes sense.

The MD, MT, and HS builds all create the same plugin from the perspective of the host, so they should never be used at the same time unless you give them different names yourself. For my own testing I use them all at the same time in one Ableton project, but I do it by giving them different names. The different builds are necessary because the C++ library files present on different Windows systems can vary so much, and sometimes MD does not work and MT does. MT has the statically link libraries.

I’ve had several reports of Fathom crashing when people try to use external preset management systems and I have no idea why it happens. Mostly the problem is I really don’t understand what the host is doing or why anyone would want to use another system when the presets can be so easily loaded and saved from inside Fathom, not to mention organized externally by file.

I think the problem is that hosts which offer this feature are somehow causing Fathom to read their own XML files, and Fathom reads the wrong XML file thinking that it is reading one of its own and all hell breaks loose.

Someday, I hope someone can explain this to me so I understand what exactly they are trying to do.

bftucker, I made a note to make the top buttons more prominent.

Thanks everyone for testing. 2.12 is sounding pretty solid. So I will probably do the final build Thursday for a Friday release for the sale.

User avatar
pekbro
KVRAF
2014 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:12 pm

FathomSynth wrote:
The MD, MT, and HS builds all create the same plugin from the perspective of the host, so they should never be used at the same time unless you give them different names yourself. For my own testing I use them all at the same time in one Ableton project, but I do it by giving them different names. The different builds are necessary because the C++ library files present on different Windows systems can vary so much, and sometimes MD does not work and MT does. MT has the statically link libraries.
Ahh, I was just saying because every host other than reaper lists them separately.

-Cheers

subterfuge
KVRist
204 posts since 7 Sep, 2012

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:10 am

FathomSynth wrote: Most of the settings I tried to make global. Meaning that if you change the setting and close the settings page and then close the Fathom GUI, it will save them to Fathom.xml. Then if you open the Fathom GUI on another track the new settings should be displayed.
Thanks for the clarification, makes sense now. That's what was confusing me with the parameters I mentioned earlier (Audio interpolation, Detune interpolation, Detune precision and Audio buffer size). While testing the settings back and forth, I thought each Fathom instance keeps their individual settings, not realizing that was because some instances still had their settings page open.

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2321 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 am

Played with the BETA on
iMac 5K 2017
4,2 GHz IntelCore i7
32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4
High Sierra 10.13.5
LogicProX 10.4.1

No problems so far.
Installation is as easy as dropping the files into the appropriate folders
Presets working as they should
GUI resize working well
CPU depending on polyphony etc between 5% and 35%
Skins are nice
Controls, Modulators, Editors etc work as they should

Some procedures are not intuitively understandable without manual (modulation matrix for example)
Maybe sometimes in the future there is time for making this little gem a bit more accessible for the not so professional synth users.

So all in all nothing to complain about.
Congratulation!

Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

nordickvr
KVRian
925 posts since 29 Sep, 2013

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:19 am

First follow up.
(As @martinjuenke using HS 10.13.5 Logic 10.4.1)
Runs quite well!
CPU used seems find considering the sound quality offered.

Would be nice having the option to enter numerical values for Delay Beat parameter (like e.g. for the Pitch Octave).

I'd personally also prefer the turning off/on of Osc/Filter etc. being invoked with e.g. Opt/click or whatever combo.
I often muted the cell I just wanted to select (no biggie though).
May be its like for the "context menus" and you dislike this option (key/click combination).

Anyway, many thanks for this important update!
Will continue to test.

akeia
KVRist
121 posts since 14 Nov, 2016 from Berliner Umland

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:02 am

External parameter modulation is my thing and it works quite well in Fathom 2.12 Beta with most parameters. Especially modulating FM, filter and wave table parameters works well and seems artefact free. But I also found some issues in the area of external modulation. No showstoppers but with some audible artefacts. Preset loading is VERY slow. Old preset should play on until new sound is fully loaded. Deleting oscillators (during playing audio and ext modulation) crashes Reaper sometimes

Issues (on Win 10, Intel Core i3 2x1.7Ghz, 16GB):
- external modulation of "freq pulse" osc volume and/or phase results in clicking and/or noise
- external modulation of OSC "Detune Fine", "Detune Amount" produces click noises. faster modulation -> more clicks.
- changing a preset visually shows host modulation from old preset but does not actually modulate it. one needs to 2x click the parameter name to have it working.
- modulation OSC "wave table" volume has clicks
- external modulation of global pitch has audio artefacts
- host parameter names are not updated (still Parameter 0,...1) in Reason 10.1 when parameters are configured for external modulation. works in Reaper, maybe Reason issue.
- global volume does not react in realtime. external modulation seems to not work correctly for any of the main parameters (volume, pitch, polyphony)

FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:06 am

akeia, nordickvr, martinjuenke, subterfuge,

Thanks for testing and detailed data!

I will test those host automations myself and see if I can remove the clicks.

Pekbro, Yes I guess it depends on the host. You can tell which hosts are using just the name since they will list them separately and which hosts are using the ID which causes them to list just one plugin. I forgot to mention, though I intended people to use one or the other, it certainly does not do any harm to have them all in the folder.

Wow, you're right, host auto modulating the FM amount sounds like a chainsaw instead of an oscillator.

Fortunately this is easily fixed (something I've been meaning to do for a while) the host values should be interpolated across the block so there are no hard edges (unless intended).

User avatar
RPH
KVRian
1098 posts since 21 Nov, 2005 from The Netherlands

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 am

System specs: Win10 pro ( build 1803 ), i5 6600k, 16GB mem.

DAW: Renoise

I agree with what has been said about the GUI, looks great so far and a color picker would be nice.
CPU usage is lower, but need to test more to compare how much lower.

Issues so far:
- xml isn't written at close of Fathom or host DAW, previous version also doesn't ( 2.11 )? Odd..
So when I load Fathom version 2.11 in my session, then reopen Fathom 2.12 beta.. all settings are gone.
The VST2 folder has all user rights ( checked ).

- Several presets I checked of mine sound different now in the track I built for the One Synth Challenge.
Even when I go back one or two versions, I can't restore how it was..
I think you need to warn users their tracks could be altered when updating.
So far tone, how notes overlap and just now volume a little lower in new version.
Also start / stop track changes how the patch it's pitch is.

Some examples what changed in my track:
> One patch ( Foggy ) uses poly 1, when I hold a note then hold another one and release it sound stops.
BUT, when I close the track and start a new one and load up the same patch and set poly 1... it acts normal.
> Another patch ( Haunted forest ) its pitch is different in my track, can't really put my finger on the change.
When I load the track with the previous Fathom version it's still off.
> Hihat and clap notes are cut off almost randomly, no apparent reason.

Hope to find more before the release moment.

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Tj Shredder
KVRian
1371 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:48 am

Running 2.12 on a Mac Pro in Bitwig and no problems so far.
The issue with host based preset handling could be, that they need to recall all parameters and dump them back in. As Fathom does not expose everything, there might be a problem there, maybe its just too fast...

FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:58 am

TJ, Thanks.

RPH (sorry this is long, but a lot to cover)

> xml isn't written at close of Fathom or host DAW

Are you sure? When I open Fathom.xml in notepad++ the change a setting and close the gui, then go back to notepad++ it says the file changed.

Yes, the settings will be gone if you run 2.11 and then run 2.12, the reason being that 2.11 does not know about the new settings, so when it saves the XML file it overwrites it, thus deleting them. I don’t think this will be an issue since most people will be moving from 2.11 to 2.12 without ever running the old version again.

> Several presets I checked of mine sound different.

This is a bad bug, please post the preset, and if possible record and post the difference.

> I think you need to warn users their tracks could be altered when updating.

Yes, absolutely, this is called a “breaking change” and I try to avoid it at all cost.

When ever I change the code or add a feature, if it would impact old presets then I write a translation function which will keep the old preset sounding the same. For instance I did this when the number of partials changed from 128 to 400 so the mod amount on the partials for old presets would translate to the same amount of modulation on that dial.

So if any of your presets sound different, then it is for sure a bug.

If possible could you record the old and new versions so I can hear it and fix it. I know this is a pain but it would really help otherwise I won’t know what to fix.

Also, be sure that it is really your old preset, since I always review all presets when people deliver them and sometimes I change them slightly to keep all volume levels consistant, and in rare cases I change the sound if it sounds too weird or harsh.

If the volume is lower, then that is for sure a bug, and I will review that code now.

Also, if note overlap changes, that is a bug, see if you can define a little more exactly what is happening so I can fix it. (again a recording would help).

> One patch when I hold a note then hold another one and release it sound stops.

OK, this is now controlled by the setting “Mono Note Tap Return”. Set it the way you want, then make sure to close the settings page and close the gui so Fathom.xml is updated. Then when you reload the host project the other tracks will be updated to behave the same.

Sorry this is tricky to explain so get ready. In most cases settings are updated for all tracks, for instance anytime you open the gui, or open the host project. But there is one scenario where it is simply impossible to update and that is if you change an audio setting then it will not be seen by other tracks until you either open their gui or load the project.

The reason for this is that I can not go to disk to get the XML unless the gui is opened because it will cause validation failure in most hosts which are allergic to the plugin going to disk when they are scanned or validated. Opening the gui then it is safe to go to disk. Also, the settings are loaded from the host data block which is why everything is updated when the project is opened. Sorry, if this sounds complex, but I think it’s the best I could do, and most times it will be ok, because you want to set the settings how you want and then leave them.

> Another patch ( Haunted forest ) its pitch is different in my track, can't really put my finger on the change. When I load the track with the previous Fathom version it's still off.

Sorry I don’t understand, if it sounds the same in the new and old versions, what sound are you comparing it to that makes it sound wrong, just your memory?

> Hihat and clap notes are cut off almost randomly, no apparent reason.

Hmmm, this is a bug, could you post the preset please.

To recap, if things sound different it could be serious, so please at least post the preset, and if possible a recording.

If recording it takes more than a few minutes, send me a PM and I will actually PayPal you for a couple hours of your time, since it's a serious bug and will help the release, and also because at that point you are really working as an engineer not just a user. (Actually this is probably true for a lot of you for this Beta, but asking for a actual recording is perhaps a little more above and beyond.)

Great job, I think you found the most bugs of anyone, but this is good since I can get them out before the release. Thanks for detailed work!

User avatar
RPH
KVRian
1098 posts since 21 Nov, 2005 from The Netherlands

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:08 pm

FathomSynth wrote:
> xml isn't written at close of Fathom or host DAW

Are you sure? When I open Fathom.xml in notepad++ the change a setting and close the gui, then go back to notepad++ it says the file changed.
Sorry, I should have made it more clear:
I deleted the XML, a new one isn't created with the (new) settings.
If that's normal then I'll reinsert the one from the zip file.
FathomSynth wrote: Yes, the settings will be gone if you run 2.11 and then run 2.12, the reason being that 2.11 does not know about the new settings, so when it saves the XML file it overwrites it, thus deleting them. I don’t think this will be an issue since most people will be moving from 2.11 to 2.12 without ever running the old version again.
I copied Fathom folder and renamed fathom.dll to fathom-beta.dll
Then I inserted both versions in Renoise and opened and closed both versions.
This would be for people wanting to test a new version without moving immediately, but yeah maybe people will just move to the new one.
FathomSynth wrote: > Several presets I checked of mine sound different.

This is a bad bug, please post the preset, and if possible record and post the difference.
Yeah, I will do that tomorrow if I can. Not a lot of time atm sadly, had hoped to have some more time to test. :)
Can't go back to the old, but fortunately how the old sounded is on soundcloud.
FathomSynth wrote: So if any of your presets sound different, then it is for sure a bug.

If possible could you record the old and new versions so I can hear it and fix it. I know this is a pain but it would really help otherwise I won’t know what to fix.
I understand, will do my best.
What happens when you make a short track using only Fathom, then switch between 2.10 / 2.11 and 2.12 ?
FathomSynth wrote: Also, be sure that it is really your old preset, since I always review all presets when people deliver them and sometimes I change them slightly to keep all volume levels consistant, and in rare cases I change the sound if it sounds too weird or harsh.

If the volume is lower, then that is for sure a bug, and I will review that code now.
I see, didn't know you'd alter volume sometimes.. so that could be nothing then. Thanks, handy to know. :)
FathomSynth wrote: Also, if note overlap changes, that is a bug, see if you can define a little more exactly what is happening so I can fix it. (again a recording would help).
Will do, can reproduce it.

FathomSynth wrote: OK, this is now controlled by the setting “Mono Note Tap Return”. Set it the way you want, then make sure to close the settings page and close the gui so Fathom.xml is updated. Then when you reload the host project the other tracks will be updated to behave the same.
Cheers, will check that out.
FathomSynth wrote: Sorry this is tricky to explain so get ready. In most cases settings are updated for all tracks, for instance anytime you open the gui, or open the host project. But there is one scenario where it is simply impossible to update and that is if you change an audio setting then it will not be seen by other tracks until you either open their gui or load the project.

The reason for this is that I can not go to disk to get the XML unless the gui is opened because it will cause validation failure in most hosts which are allergic to the plugin going to disk when they are scanned or validated. Opening the gui then it is safe to go to disk. Also, the settings are loaded from the host data block which is why everything is updated when the project is opened. Sorry, if this sounds complex, but I think it’s the best I could do, and most times it will be ok, because you want to set the settings how you want and then leave them.
It's late here, will read this again tomorrow haha!
FathomSynth wrote: > Another patch ( Haunted forest ) its pitch is different in my track, can't really put my finger on the change. When I load the track with the previous Fathom version it's still off.

Sorry I don’t understand, if it sounds the same in the new and old versions, what sound are you comparing it to that makes it sound wrong, just your memory?
I will provide a recording, sorry If it sounds confusing. Didn't have much time to explain better.
FathomSynth wrote: > Hihat and clap notes are cut off almost randomly, no apparent reason.

Hmmm, this is a bug, could you post the preset please.

To recap, if things sound different it could be serious, so please at least post the preset, and if possible a recording.
I will and provide a reference. Of course, understand this info is not enough to go on. Wanted to let you know ASAP.
FathomSynth wrote: If recording it takes more than a few minutes, send me a PM and I will actually PayPal you for a couple hours of your time, since it's a serious bug and will help the release, and also because at that point you are really working as an engineer not just a user. (Actually this is probably true for a lot of you for this Beta, but asking for a actual recording is perhaps a little more above and beyond.)

Great job, I think you found the most bugs of anyone, but this is good since I can get them out before the release. Thanks for detailed work!
You really don't need to pay me for this, I really like doing it.
Will do my best to provide what you need to find what's wrong, or what I am doing wrong ( which is entirely possible haha ! ). ;)

Cheers!

FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 pm

OK, Thanks for your hard work, and great engineering/debugging (same goes to all of you above for beta testing work).

I think you might be right about the volume, it seemed lower to me also, I will check it out.

Also, I found the cause of the clicking bug for host auto parameters, that will be fixed in 2.12.

FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:53 am

Screenshot of the New Reverb Pro page.

The Reverb Pro panel has been reorganized to look consistent with the rest of the interface.

Additional parameters include Room Size, Feedback, modulate-able Dry and Web controls, modulate-able master Reverb Time, and filters and feedback controls on all three echo channels.

Each filter can be set to Low Pass, High Pass, Band Pass and Parametric. Also the main bank filter can now be set to the four filter types instead of just low pass.

Beta Testers I will be updating your release with this new stuff tomorrow (Saturday).
fathom 10.jpg
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User avatar
Vertion
KVRist
456 posts since 29 Oct, 2016

Re: Fathom New CPU Benchmark Performance Tests

Post Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:50 am

FathomSynth wrote:Reverb Pro
I like the word packaging, is this a novel/new reverb algorithm?

FathomSynth
KVRian
882 posts since 25 Mar, 2017 from Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: Fathom New Reverb Pro "Extreme" Version

Post Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:10 am

No, its the same Reverb Pro effect, but with some controls added.

Room Size, a separate multi-type filter on each echo channel and the ability to modulate the dry and room levels and Reverb Time.

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