Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)

[Debutante]

They are not expensive. You are poor. Big difference.

No, i'm not. I just have a strict budget for a hobby i won't pursue nearly extensive enough to make it worth to buy thousands worth of equipment. But, that's not even the point here. 150-200 € for a soft synth is a lot of money. I discovered the Korg Monologue today, which is a fully fledge analog synth, with one knob per function (welll... almost), a 2 octave keyboard, and even an arpeggiator/sequencer thingie. For 250 €. Not sure if one can still argue that it is justified to offer 150-200 € soft synths then.

Anyway, back to Gladiator then.

Agreed...

...and first; I'll apologize for being so boorish, and then thank you for keeping a cool head against such acrid criticism. . Pricing is one of the few times I'm happy to 'let the market decide'. There's a painfully simple synth I haven't bought YET: Beepstreet Dagger, that I'd happily pay $200 for. I think it sounds marvelous... or think the bootsy plugins... it's really all relative in the end anyway.

Gladiator is an awesome other on my list, can't decide from Tone2. Their stuff sounds quite artificial to me, but very heavy and well done. Definitely filling a niche in ones sound palette. Maybe the V3 will entice MY meager budget

[LeVzi]

Aren't Gladiator and Electra becoming more and more similar, anyway? With some Tone2 synths I fail to see the real difference, it always says zillions of synthesis types that make sounds never heard before.

You can say that about any 2 or 3 synths from the same stable, they all make noise, and can shape it in many wonderful ways. It's what you like or prefer.

[Vertion]

PRIORITY MESSAGE

I am probably one of Tone2's harshest critics, so I take what I am about to type very seriously.

I bought their entire package for a bit over a grand about 4 years ago. Only weeks later they published a new synth update, that required another payment, even though I just bought it!

I was pissed. So I not only skipped Icarus, but all synth updates. Being a dev myself, I looked into Tone2's profile and found the primary developer (Markus) was someone I had respected for sometime; due to the fact that he is the mind that powered reFX (maker of Nexus2) into the market.

I wanted to see Tone2 learn a lesson in customer relationships. So, I started writing regarding my negative experience. I do believe that it might have had a substantial impact on Tone2 as I continued to observe the market. Tone2 appeared to be struggling more and more, and finally I saw posts from Markus himself indicating this, as I could see he indicatively was going through a personal revolution. Eventually Tone2 went generally silent on the market.

Time passed.

Then suddenly... a free update on Gladiator2!!! Then another for Nemesis!!! Then another!!! Markus saw the problem and fixed it. I could tell Tone2's customerbase was beginning to celebrate Tone2's generosity, focusing not just on the profit.. but a real positive connection with the people.

I eventually emailed Tone2's superman Troel about the situation. Not only did he give me the update I missed, he updated all my synths, and gave me an amazing deal on Icarus for my trouble. I seriously wish I could airlift them a case of beer and pizza.

Tone2 reinvented itself, they tuned into the customer and are giving some real love back. For anyone who really knows synths.. you can feel the spirit of the developers in the synth itself, and how the designer felt when he/she made it. This is why synths from the same developer always tend to have a very similar sonic characteristic.

My apologies to Tone2 for such harshness, they are a great team. Markus and Troels are absolutely moving upwards ... they have a spirit of ascension upon them... and I am curious and very excited to hear Gladiator 3 is going to sound like. I hope they have a wonderful time making it, so that we can have a wonderful time playing it. I hope they open up a beer and pizza fund on pateron for me to contribute.

And so, from one of the harshest Tone2 critics, they are really doing f*king great!

[Vertion]

They are not expensive. You are poor. Big difference.

Not nice.

Unless you are using these synths to making money, or you are rich...Then any synth over 35 is considerably expensive. However, Tone2 may yet start a tiered product line.

Something like:
Casual Product Line is 25-35
Expert Product Line is 75-85
Studio Master Product Line is upwards of 120.

[fanodu1]

I can do the same feature list crap with Zebra 2 that you did with Electra 2 but I won't waste my time. You think the synth is worth $199? Fine. I don't.

Now that's just arguing like a kid.

[chk071]

TBH, i couldn't be arsed to create an extensive list to compare as well though. I don't have a doubt that Zebra is the more complex and deeper synth though. FWIW. I also tend to more simple synths. Thing is just, both are priced the same, and one offers much less, which leads to the point again. Ok, no point in further arguments, they pick the price, and everyone is free to say yes or no.

[PietW.]

Where is the announcement of Gladiator3? The announced version is 2.7

Tone 2 forum. Gladiator 3 isn't out yet. The OP has quotes from the Tone 2 forum.

Markus did not mention version 3.

[zvenx]

Where is the announcement of Gladiator3? The announced version is 2.7

Tone 2 forum. Gladiator 3 isn't out yet. The OP has quotes from the Tone 2 forum.

Markus did not mention version 3.

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?ac ... 8e34a17c2e

This might be even more good news:
We added many further enhancements to it. That's why we decided to call it Gladiator 3. It will be free for all Gladiator2 users and downward compatible.

or was the 'not' a typo?

rsp

[Vertion]

What is the difference between Vitual Analog and Subtractive? Analog isn't even a synthesis type. Care to explain?

Virtual Analog simulates the circuity similar to LiveSPICE, whereas subtractive is usually just digital ramp-based lookup, vector, and/or function plot.

How is Ultra-Saw a synthesis type? It's just a waveform.

Are you assuming he is using a ramp-based waveform lookup? If the saw are being generated dynamically by set of functions, instead, this could be considered synthesis.

Waveshaping and Phase Distortion are pretty much the same thing (althoug implementation may differ).

Phase distortion is about the modulating the oscillators current phase, whereas waveshaping is actually taking input from -1.0 to 1.0 and doing a remap to a function or interpolated vector(s), not unlike ramp-based waveform lookup.

Fractal synthesis... It's just an algorithm to create noise (or somehow contollable weird) shapes. I would hardly call that a "new synthesis" method... but whatever. It may become interesting in some ways, for fans of circuit bending.

Fractal synthesis is when the output waveform is self-similar in shape at higher frequencies. However it depends on how this self-similarity is applied (to what aspect). In this case I believe he is simply using the waveform to look itself up.. which means it's using itself as a lookup... probably multiple times recursively, considering it's fractal.

[wagtunes]

TBH, i couldn't be arsed to create an extensive list to compare as well though. I don't have a doubt that Zebra is the more complex and deeper synth though. FWIW. I also tend to more simple synths. Thing is just, both are priced the same, and one offers much less, which leads to the point again. Ok, no point in further arguments, they pick the price, and everyone is free to say yes or no.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. And I think that's what the majority of the people do in picking U-he synths over Tone 2 synths. In fact, I don't think Tone 2 synths sell well at all. Or at least didn't until maybe the recent changes.

Case in point. Everybody here pretty much unanimously agrees that my patch libraries are crap. So, given that, all of them should pretty much do as poorly sales wise.

Here are the numbers U-he versus Tone 2 out of my 67 libraries.

Zebra 2 - 5th
Bazille - 9th
Repro-5 - 14th
Diva - 16th
Repro-1 - 17th
ACE - 26th

Icarus - 27th
Electra 2 - 40th
Rayblaster - 41st
Saurus 2 - 45th
Nemesis - 59th

As you can see, outside of Icarus, which didn't even outsell a basically simple synth like ACE, none of the Tone 2 synths even come close to the U-he synths in sales.

So given all things being equal, as in all my libraries are crap, it's clearly obvious that U-he has a much larger customer base than Tone 2. I know that if I get a U-he synth and make a library for it, it's pretty much guaranteed to fall somewhere in my top 20 libraries. Tone 2 is pretty much guaranteed to do poorly.

And I think it's because of their inflated prices.

Can I prove this? Of course not. But I think it's a valid theory.

[jsp1979]

Where is the announcement of Gladiator3? The announced version is 2.7

Tone 2 forum. Gladiator 3 isn't out yet. The OP has quotes from the Tone 2 forum.

Markus did not mention version 3.

Oooookaaay. Try reading again.

[chk071]

@wagtunes: Where do you advertise your sound sets? If it is only on KVR, and, considering also the musical style your soundsets represent, i'd say that it's not a wonder that your u-he ones sell better. I think you also have a point claiming that u-he's synths sell better though, IMO. I'd be surprised if they wouldn't.

[wagtunes]

@wagtunes: Where do you advertise your sound sets? If it is only on KVR, and, considering also the musical style your soundsets represent, i'd say that it's not a wonder that your u-he ones sell better. I think you also have a point claiming that u-he's synths sell better though, IMO. I'd be surprised if they wouldn't.

I don't advertise my soundsets anywhere. It's a hobby. It's something to give me something to do. I throw a post on Soundware, put the set in the KVR Database and submit a news item. That's it. I have a small list of customers who have become loyal over time and get pretty much everything I put out. Those customers are mostly U-he and very little Tone 2.

The only product that blows U-he out of the water is Softube and I think that's simply because there just aren't a lot of libraries out there for it.

[fmr]

What is the difference between Vitual Analog and Subtractive? Analog isn't even a synthesis type. Care to explain?

Virtual Analog simulates the circuity similar to LiveSPICE, whereas subtractive is usually just digital ramp-based lookup, vector, and/or function plot.

Subtractive synthesis is when you use complex waveforms, and filter their spectrum content. Analog synthesis means nothing. It is subtractive synthesis, no matter how you implement it. "Virtual analog" is just marketing.

How is Ultra-Saw a synthesis type? It's just a waveform.

Are you assuming he is using a ramp-based waveform lookup? If the saw is being generated dynamically by a set of functions, instead, this could be considered synthesis.

I'm not assuming anything. I am just saying that Hypersaw is Hypersaw, e.g. stacked saws. No more, no less. And I was never assuming he was using wavetable lookup for the subtractive synthesis (of which the Hypersaw is just another wave choice).

Waveshaping and Phase Distortion are pretty much the same thing (although implementation may differ).

Phase distortion is about the modulating the oscillators current phase, whereas waveshaping is actually taking input from -1.0 to 1.0 and doing a remap to a function or interpolated vector(s), not unlike ramp-based waveform lookup.

Again, and as I said, implementation differs, but the results are pretty similar. It's a bit like the "real FM" and "phase modulation".

Fractal synthesis... It's just an algorithm to create noise (or somehow contollable weird) shapes. I would hardly call that a "new synthesis" method... but whatever. It may become interesting in some ways, for fans of circuit bending.

Fractal synthesis is when the output waveform is self-similar in shape at higher frequencies. However, it depends on how this self-similarity is applied (to what aspect). In this case, I believe he is simply using the waveform to look itself up.. which means it's using itself as a lookup... probably multiple times recursively, considering it's fractal.

Fractal synthesis is (can be so called) when you use fractals, whatever you do with them. There is no such thing as "fractal synthesis" anywhere in the synthesis research papers, AFAIK. What Electra2 does with fractals is not clear, as you implicitly admitted. I'm not saying it cannot be interesting, in some cases... just that calling that "fractal synthesis" is more a marketing weapon than something assumedly implemented and explored as such. It would be the same if, because the synth can do FM between the two oscillators, they say their synth is an FM synth. Technically, they are right, since it CAN do FM, but in terms of what is commonly accepted as an FM synth, they are not.

BTW: There are some explorations now being developed using "chaos oscillators" which may be interesting.

[Vertion]

Case in point. Everybody here pretty much unanimously agrees that my patch libraries are crap. So, given that, all of them should pretty much do as poorly sales wise.

Wagtunes, your 'crap' is awesome. I would like to have some actually after reason three.

There are 3 reasons people are not buying currently.
1. They don't know.
2. Not evaluated as having enough value.
3. Not enough money.

Fix it: Repackage for the experience.
1. Write a random person on KVR (or wherever), and tell them you pick 10 people a day to receive a free soundset. Possibly post the winners to get people more invested.

2. Unless it's food and shelter, you are selling dreams.. so make it the best dream a person can have. Work on the look and feel of the experience of Wagtunes... not just audio, but visual.. the whole customer experience from start to ongoing.

3. If they don't have the money, come up with multiple pricing options.

4. Create a positive habit, if you can get them to buy a little, they can buy a lot. This only works if they feel they completely own the choice of buying, and feel a little hit of joy for doing it.