8DIO - My experience

[GearNostalgia]

@GearNostalgia fwi I’m on your side here.

You will always get trolls that will always side with company’s over users.

The same trolls are the first to moan when they have a problem.

Kvr has a mute button in the form of foe, try it out once you spot one.

Well I don't think there were many trolls on VI actually. Things got intense and many was demanding answers so I got pressed for time to respond and missed a few posts which was a big fuckup on my part. I think they acted to defend their business and not just to aggravate me.

But neither that fact that it was a 10 vs 1 situation or me admitting that I lashed out too harshly did not placate the admin cause he had made up his mind long before that I guess. I think he has deleted that thread now btw. Maybe he did not want his statement that he did not give a rats ass about fair and that he would also take actions about kicking out more from the forum that had some similiar views like me and that he had talked about it with 8Dio behind the scenes to not remain in the open.

Thank you for the tip to that mute button, but I don't think I will use it. I think I have learned a bit about how to deal with this from my VI-experiences now. I will ignore some, answer all in a neutral tone, don't use irony that may be misunderstood(even if it was intended to answer mockery or insult) and if I get agitated or furious I will take a long walk before answering.

[jancivil]

Yeah, you know, I have really no interest in VI Control, it's just not vibrating right for me. When I first started with the whole control of vis thing I was but I never got the activate your account email. I have an account there apparently anyway.

[GearNostalgia]

Yeah, you know, I have really no interest in VI Control, it's just not vibrating right for me. When I first started with the whole control of vis thing I was but I never got the activate your account email. I have an account there apparently anyway.

Well there are some skilled people there that you can learn tricks of the trades from so maybe there is something for you there. After all that unfolded as I see it now the advice to go and talk about this EULA matter on VI was good. I did not enter there to win and get my money back as you know. I did not expect to meet so many developers either, but I think that was a good thing. They seemed to be set in their way, but I did detect some signs of some of them starting to contemplate the thought that there may better way of selling sound that would cause less grief for both customers and developers as somebody mentioned crowdfunding, rent to own and other solutions. Maybe I gave things a little nudge towards a better future for sound libraries.

[paoling]

GearNostalgia. Just out of curiosity: I was one of the few to try to demonstrate that your concerns about the sound of that library were unfounded. I posted examples, analysis and after a bit of arguing with me when these weren't enough to convince you, you went silent with me in the last pages. You could have said that the library is unplayable, the GUI is horrible, I wouldn't have said anything. I don't have that library and those are points that can be very subjective.

On this specific point I tried to demonstrate that the sound you hear is perfectly fine and actually, I believe, you don't have a remote idea of how a choir sounds like. It's not a crime, I fooled myself in the past with similar thoughts on other instruments. And you weren't alone, I was surprised to see that many people supported your statement. In my final posts there, before the thread was closed I gave a final example to replicate Jason's editing and prove that's a normal sound in choirs.

I'm just asking, because in the end I felt that I just wasted time, trying to talk with someone who wasn't willing to listen.

[GearNostalgia]

GearNostalgia. Just out of curiosity: I was one of the few to try to demonstrate that your concerns about the sound of that library were unfounded. I posted examples, analysis and after a bit of arguing with me when these weren't enough to convince you, you went silent with me in the last pages. You could have said that the library is unplayable, the GUI is horrible, I wouldn't have said anything. I don't have that library and those are points that can be very subjective.

On this specific point I tried to demonstrate that the sound you hear is perfectly fine and actually, I believe, you don't have a remote idea of how a choir sounds like. It's not a crime, I fooled myself in the past with similar thoughts on other instruments. And you weren't alone, I was surprised to see that many people supported your statement. In my final posts there, before the thread was closed I gave a final example to replicate Jason's editing and prove that's a normal sound in choirs.

I'm just asking, because in the end I felt that I just wasted time, trying to talk with someone who wasn't willing to listen.

Well, sorry if you felt that way. I am not sure you are aware, but it is the world cup of soccer now and I like to watch the games with my friends. So I only followed the threads in between my day job and between watching the games. I learned the hard way from that VI-thread that it is impossible to try and answer lots of questions in short time. At first the thread was pretty steady at one or two posts occasionally that i could handle. But suddenly there were like ten and also some more messaging me in private juste minutes apart. And at that moment I tried to respond on my iPhone(I am like 20 times slower at typing on the phone that on my PC). So I answered a few, then next game began and I left the thread to watch last part of the game and when I game back all hell had broken loose. I replied to the last post that was posted that was from Tawnia stating that she might have handled my case if I hade mailed... That made me see red. When I had replied to that I was going to respond to more, but the admin has locked the thread. I messaged him asking what has happened and how I should respond to all that I had left to answer. He never answered me. So next day I went back and read all the tread and saw a lot of post that I had not replied to in time and also a new post in the locked thread. I asked in the forum why there were still coming in new post in the locked thread... and that made admin ban me.

So plain and simple, sorry I just never had the time to answer you in time before the thread was locked and my account banned.

I can answer you here. that you for your opinion and experience with coirs. I could not predict that acoustical hall phenomena and I don't like it. It may be natural to some, but it sounds awful to me. And I isntantly contacted 8Dio about it and the support guy said something like. "Ok, sorry, if I had expected that I would have adviced you to buy another of our choirs like..." I said - fine, can you handle a licence transfer to another product... and as we all know they just responded - no. Several times on chat and on mail. That is why things just got f**ked up. Even while they actively adviced me to get that specific product they were totally unwilling to handle any kind of refund/trade/swap/resale. It seemed really absurd since they were so well oiled in convincing me about what product to get that they did not even try to talk me into a trade in solution where they could keep the money and give me something else(of lower value if they were really slick). That attitude of zero helpfulness forced me to accept full loss and to warn others of their EULA.

There seems to be a lot of people out there like you that would be happy to eq out that part and use the library. I am not, I would love to sell my license to you or somebody else if they could/would allow it and forget all about them. Speaking of it I also have a Dobro from them. It sounds ok, it only have some script flaws that make certain notes not play. It may sound crazy, but I have not brought that up until now. I believe in beeing fair and I bought that library totally on my own without any assurance from 8Dios online support that it was a great product (and it is also a lot cheaper) so I can accept that I made that bad choice entirely on my own and since most octaves play ok I have used it a little bit.

[jancivil]

to demonstrate that your concerns about the sound of that library were unfounded.

I don't have that library

I saw that, you and another argued that in terms of acoustics the 'whistling' will occur per se. So concerns as to this product are unfounded even as you do not have it, needing only the demonstration you provided.

Following this logic: Every artifact of this size choir in a highly reflective hall has to be present in every choir samples library and can't be helped, then?

[GearNostalgia]

to demonstrate that your concerns about the sound of that library were unfounded.

I don't have that library

I saw that, you and another argued that in terms of acoustics the 'whistling' will occur per se. So concerns as to this product are unfounded even as you do not have it, needing only the demonstration you provided.

Following this logic: Every artifact of this size choir in a highly reflective hall has to be present in every choir samples library and can't be helped, then?

Yes I have also thought so. If it was such a given thing why was it not clear in all samples in all octaves and in many other vocal phrases? I remember somebody attributing it to that there were just a few samples here and there pitchshifted and streatch to fill the gaps. that sounded plausible to a hobbyist like myself. Well actually it may very well be present in more places in Lacrimosa library. After this huge let down I just skimmied through it real fast. I might have missed a lot. Also I have not heard it as clear in other libraries that have been presented as demonstrations either.

[paoling]

This sound is part of any choir performance. And actually, contrary to what Troels said, I believe that’s part of the choir sound itself more than the acoustics of the room. The sound is more present of closer microphones and the distance actually attenuates it. And it’s naturally more evident on higher dynamics.

There are a lot of “sonic” illusions in music and samples are just a way to expose them clearly, while in a musical context they are masked by other instruments and harmony.

For example a Cello produces a quite unpleasant wobbling when it’s vibrating high pitch notes and the bow noise becomes quite relevant. It drove me mad when working on our first solo cello library. It’s part of the sound of those notes. It’s fine. If you then listen to a live performance you can actually hear the very same effect.

Some stuff can be a consequence of the sampling process, but actually that choir sound and that cello sound are part of how those “instruments” sound in real life.

Why it’s not so evident on all pitches I don’t know, I can’t speak for 8dio or about how the library is sampled. Pitch stretching causes artifacts, but the most obvious to me on voices is “gender change”: male become female and viceversa and female become child and viceversa.
This is due to the formants of the voice: the throat filters our notes and our mouth filters again to create the different vowels. These filters are at a fixed precise frequency. If you pitchshift the voice too much you move the frequency of those filters and create a kind of chipmunk or “monster” effect.

[elxsound]

Disclaimer: I don't own this choir library either...

With that said, from what I've seen of their work, for those that own this... Is it safe to say that the artifacts in question are present in some samples, but not all?

I'm not asking about pitch... If it's consistently present at a specific pitch, then that's one thing, but if the presence of the artifacts are only present in some samples of the same played note, but not all then there's a bigger issue.

People who actually care about their products, will go mad in identifying problem areas, and so will people who use these libraries for producing commercial products... they'll go mad in correcting sampling issues already discussed as being present in ortho 8DIO products.

This sound is part of any choir performance. And actually, contrary to what Troels said, I believe that’s part of the choir sound itself more than the acoustics of the room. The sound is more present of closer microphones and the distance actually attenuates it. And it’s naturally more evident on higher dynamics.

There are a lot of “sonic” illusions in music and samples are just a way to expose them clearly, while in a musical context they are masked by other instruments and harmony.

For example a Cello produces a quite unpleasant wobbling when it’s vibrating high pitch notes and the bow noise becomes quite relevant. It drove me mad when working on our first solo cello library. It’s part of the sound of those notes. It’s fine. If you then listen to a live performance you can actually hear the very same effect.

Some stuff can be a consequence of the sampling process, but actually that choir sound and that cello sound are part of how those “instruments” sound in real life.

Why it’s not so evident on all pitches I don’t know, I can’t speak for 8dio or about how the library is sampled. Pitch stretching causes artifacts, but the most obvious to me on voices is “gender change”: male become female and viceversa and female become child and viceversa.
This is due to the formants of the voice: the throat filters our notes and our mouth filters again to create the different vowels. These filters are at a fixed precise frequency. If you pitchshift the voice too much you move the frequency of those filters and create a kind of chipmunk or “monster” effect.

[GearNostalgia]

This sound is part of any choir performance. And actually, contrary to what Troels said, I believe that’s part of the choir sound itself more than the acoustics of the room. The sound is more present of closer microphones and the distance actually attenuates it. And it’s naturally more evident on higher dynamics.

There are a lot of “sonic” illusions in music and samples are just a way to expose them clearly, while in a musical context they are masked by other instruments and harmony.

Seems so, which I why this Library did not work out for me as I intend to use it in context with my vintage synthesizers that produce pure tones. My intentions was for the choir to have as clear position as the other instrument and sit in the back of the other instruments. Actually I first set out to find a choir that could sing a phrase of words. I looked at Dominus, but I compose for english so latin did not do the trick... I was considering Hollowood choirs for the word builder, but then in the heat of the 8Dio sale and with a lot of friendly conversation with their online chat I felt that assured it would be better to have a nice sound of AHH and MM that a halfgood sound of a wordbuilder.

For example a Cello produces a quite unpleasant wobbling when it’s vibrating high pitch notes and the bow noise becomes quite relevant. It drove me mad when working on our first solo cello library. It’s part of the sound of those notes. It’s fine. If you then listen to a live performance you can actually hear the very same effect.

Thank you for the information. Will keep that in mind if I some day feel a need for cello.

Some stuff can be a consequence of the sampling process, but actually that choir sound and that cello sound are part of how those “instruments” sound in real life.

Why it’s not so evident on all pitches I don’t know, I can’t speak for 8dio or about how the library is sampled. Pitch stretching causes artifacts, but the most obvious to me on voices is “gender change”: male become female and viceversa and female become child and viceversa.
This is due to the formants of the voice: the throat filters our notes and our mouth filters again to create the different vowels. These filters are at a fixed precise frequency. If you pitchshift the voice too much you move the frequency of those filters and create a kind of chipmunk or “monster” effect.

Yes, the gender and pitchmonk thing I remember from the good old days and hearing an Emax for the first time. I have Melodyne and that does it better, but as I think I have said somewhere else. I really don't want to play each sample and mangle them into submission with Melodyne. I expected that would have been done by the developer and but under a switch (overtone artifacts on/off). I was wrong. No I know. I only wish they did offer a timelimited demo or something so I could have discovered that at the go and moved on to finding the right instrument for me. Or had the grace to refund me or trade in that licence since they played an active and big part in the selection process of the wrong product.

[GearNostalgia]

Disclaimer: I don't own this choir library either...

With that said, from what I've seen of their work, for those that own this... Is it safe to say that the artifacts in question are present in some samples, but not all?

Too me it was very clear on many notes here and there, while on some notes my ears did not pick it up. there were also some jumps in volume and stepping in pitch that I did not like.

I'm not asking about pitch... If it's consistently present at a specific pitch, then that's one thing, but if the presence of the artifacts are only present in some samples of the same played note, but not all then there's a bigger issue.

People who actually care about their products, will go mad in identifying problem areas, and so will people who use these libraries for producing commercial products... they'll go mad in correcting sampling issues already discussed as being present in ortho 8DIO products.

Yes, that is exactly why I did not enoy it. I wanted to "play" it, I did not intend to sequence it and edit it to make it sound good. As for pros a lot of people on VI said they were pros and ok with editing and avoiding the bad parts in libraries. I wondered why the felt it was ok for them to waste time on stuff that was not about them making music. I don't think I got a better explanation than this has been going on for ages so they have accepted it as the natural order of things and that only a choral puritan or uneducated amateur like me would expect anything else.

I just begun a list in here to make it easier to see the terms of sales so people can see that there are better and worse developers to deal with. viewtopic.php?f=42&t=507014

[paoling]

Let me say that's very difficult to find recordings of choirs singing forte a solo note with no instruments added which are not sample libraries. Harmony and the room mask the effect of the overtone. And not it's not an "artifact".



This is a beautiful peformance of Samuel Barber's Adagio with a Choir. Beautiful isn't it?

Now.

Listen to this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nodiq91fpft8 ... r.wav?dl=0



This is an extract with a eq on on off on the highest dynamic part (at around 5:10).

If you hear it more as a noise than a pitch, it's because the complexity of the harmony makes it thicker than the overtone produced by a single steady note sung by a single section. But it's the very same effect. This is not an artifact. Why you hear on some notes and other not, I can't say. I hear it on all notes.

[bigcat1969]

So the goal was to add a modern choir to vintage synths... That's like going to a high end restaurant and complaining that the food doesn't palette match your Mcdonald's cheeseburger. This probably also explains why you can't seem to understand the technical info from a respected developer complete with examples and visual depictions of tones. Because yeah he was warning you about cellos.

Erm why don't you use a vintage synth choir which won't have that nasty interplay of tones and you know overtones that all REAL acoustic instruments and voices have and old synths could never get right?

PS Ain't ya glad he didn't buy Dominus, it would have been an entirely different thread on VIC! This might be the only time in history my choir would have worked better in context than yours.

[mgw38]

As for pros a lot of people on VI said they were pros and ok with editing and avoiding the bad parts in libraries. I wondered why the felt it was ok for them to waste time on stuff that was not about them making music. I don't think I got a better explanation than this has been going on for ages so they have accepted it as the natural order of things and that only a choral puritan or uneducated amateur like me would expect anything else.

With libraries that contain tens of thousands of samples which have to be merged into one consistent product, there is a very obvious tradeoff between character/authenticity, sample accuracy and price point. I just think that most pros accept that.

[GearNostalgia]

Listen to this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nodiq91fpft8 ... r.wav?dl=0

Can you put that up in some other way? It does not seem to play back for me... I hear nothing.