Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)

[starflakeprj]

I wouldn't use tone2 products for creating something for other products. The sound quality is under question (I proved that in the past. Clicks, glitches, crappy envelopes). Also, they said that the sound that is coming from their synths is watermarked.

Even if watermarking real-time audio would be possible, it would take to much CPU power. The Tone2 synths have a pretty low CPU footprint, and still sound fantastic in my ears.

I found it unlikely that they have said that the sound is watermarked, but if they actually have, I don't believe it a bit.

[Igro]

I wouldn't use tone2 products for creating something for other products. The sound quality is under question (I proved that in the past. Clicks, glitches, crappy envelopes). Also, they said that the sound that is coming from their synths is watermarked.

Even if watermarking real-time audio would be possible, it would take to much CPU power. The Tone2 synths have a pretty low CPU footprint, and still sound fantastic in my ears.

I found it unlikely that they have said that the sound is watermarked, but if they actually have, I don't believe it a bit.

That's what they said here on KVR long time ago.

[starflakeprj]

I wouldn't use tone2 products for creating something for other products. The sound quality is under question (I proved that in the past. Clicks, glitches, crappy envelopes). Also, they said that the sound that is coming from their synths is watermarked.

Even if watermarking real-time audio would be possible, it would take to much CPU power. The Tone2 synths have a pretty low CPU footprint, and still sound fantastic in my ears.

I found it unlikely that they have said that the sound is watermarked, but if they actually have, I don't believe it a bit.

That's what they said here on KVR long time ago.

Probably to scare people off using "cracked" versions of their software. I do know they historically had a few shady things going on, and many of their files are named "watermarked" (I have their whole bundle), but I have realized comparing these files with a friend who have purchase a few of their plugins and soundsets, that he has the exact same file. So I take the watermarking "marketing" being just empty words, especially the sound watermarking, which would take a high amount of CPU to do in real-time, as the sound is also produced in real-time. Watermarking samples in a rompler or sampler is another story.

[chk071]

Damn, i'm away one day from this forum, and this is what happens.

No, seriously, even though i can understand Urs, and don't think his request was unreasonable, or hints to a copyright infringement, i think that that old gossip about Tone2 should be buried at some point really. I couldn't care less what copy rpotection they use, or if their stuff is watermarked. If then, i'd own a legit copy anyway, as does anyone else, and i definitely believe that Markus is a good coder, thus any kind of copy protection wouldn't affect sound quality, something which always was a major concern, and which always should be. I also wished there was a bit less industry hostility on this and other forums. After all, we can all be happy that this is such a diverse market, and that we can buy and enjoy so many great products. There's absolutely no reason for any hostility whatsoever. I really think there's too much time at hand that such thoughts even occur. Jeez, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Don't ever throw at penny at something you don't want to support, and let other people choose for themselves. THAT is freedom, not jerking around, and agitating.

[exmatproton]

Damn, i'm away one day from this forum, and this is what happens.

No, seriously, even though i can understand Urs, and don't think his request was unreasonable, or hints to a copyright infringement, i think that that old gossip about Tone2 should be buried at some point really. I couldn't care less what copy rpotection they use, or if their stuff is watermarked. If then, i'd own a legit copy anyway, as does anyone else, and i definitely believe that Markus is a good coder, thus any kind of copy protection wouldn't affect sound quality, something which always was a major concern, and which always should be. I also wished there was a bit less industry hostility on this and other forums. After all, we can all be happy that this is such a diverse market, and that we can buy and enjoy so many great products. There's absolutely no reason for any hostility whatsoever. I really think there's too much time at hand that such thoughts even occur. Jeez, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Don't ever throw at penny at something you don't want to support, and let other people choose for themselves. THAT is freedom, not jerking around, and agitating.

+1

[bmrzycki]

I couldn't care less what copy protection they use, or if their stuff is watermarked. If then, i'd own a legit copy anyway, as does anyone else, and i definitely believe that Markus is a good coder, thus any kind of copy protection wouldn't affect sound quality, something which always was a major concern, and which always should be.

I still don't trust Tone2 software and refuse to install it. They lost all respect in my mind when I saw they scanned and silentely deleted files they decided were illegal during installation. While I understand Tone2's frustration with piracy I also know the pitfalls of professional software development and how incredibly difficult it is to produce code that does not contain bugs or unintended side effects. I'm all for melting guis or fun jokes planted in the illegal copies but to add this to freeware as a vector to attack other files is something else. I'm not going to let my hard drive be the battleground for someone else's digital crusade.

[rob_lee]

NM

[Examigan]

Ok then. Maybe we buy some. Does anyone know if .wav exported from Gladiator or Icarus can be used & shipped with other products, e.g. soundbanks for Serum? Or do Tone2 somehow retain some kind of copyright on user created documents?

EDIT: I heard from Tone2 again and they said its actually not ok, so I'd suggest you contact them directly
about this. They sent me this section from the EULA:

Sampling:
This product can be used for music production, making records, remixes, commercials, jingles, soundtracks for film, theatre, musicals and computer games. The included sounds and this product can not be used for making music or sounds that will be licensed or sold as library music, sound clips or other sample based products. You are not allowed to sample and distribute sounds or waveforms from this product without our written permission. Especially not for creating commercial content for other synthesizers, sample packs, romplers or audio devices.

[EnGee]

I had negative feelings for Tone2 in the past (~ pre-Icarus era), but with Icarus release I noticed they have changed and they seem friendly (installation, no piracy paranoia anymore, ...etc) that I was thinking of buying their products especially Icarus. Although I don't have any Tone2 product now, but I really respect their efforts trying to invent new methods in synthesis.

Their products reminds me of Sylenth1 that they use very low CPU while having a pleasant sound, not for everyone though. Gladiator 3 seems interesting but even if I like the demo, I won't buy any synth (from them or any developer) for more than $100 in one go! What I mean I might buy Gladiator 2 for $100 or less and upgrade to Gladiator 3 for another $50 (for example). I bought Dune 2 for $99 and Sylenth1 for the same price, so it is not about Tone2 products only. Anyway, my GAS is very low for new soft synths these days

[Try-Harder]

Can't wait to get the free upgrade.

[LeVzi]

Urs: The license agreement of the Tone2 products does not allow a ripping or sampling of the product and a re-use for sample CDs or other commercial products. It can only be used for the production of songs. Everything that goes beyon requires a written permission from the copyright holder.

Why do you want to copy it? Why don't you create new and own ideas?

A-ha.

See, here's the difference between cool and gutless. Steve Duda gave us permission to create original wavetables in Serum and reuse them for commercial products without a blink. We asked simply because the waveform editor in Serum is the best out there.

We don't have any plans to "rip or sample" anyone's work, but we're checking out all solutions available on the market. We simply wish to add a comprehensive list of great and *compatible* waveform editors to an upcoming product, simply so sound designers can use the best tools available.

Apparently, if what you say is right (I bet you are!), Tone2 products use proprietary format which we have no intent to reverse engineer. Therefore Tone2 products, unlike Serum or WaveEdit, won't be on the list of "compatible" products and everyone can move on in peace.

- U

Can't help yourself can you, your unbelievable arrogance, with a seemingly "innocent" question on a Tone2 thread is laughable. If you want to know something about a Tone2 synth, why not speak to Markus as dev to dev ? Why post up here other than to take the opportunity to make some backhanded stab at them. Not the first time you've done it either.

Absolutely laughable. Truly pathetic from someone who should know better.

[LeVzi]

I couldn't care less what copy protection they use, or if their stuff is watermarked. If then, i'd own a legit copy anyway, as does anyone else, and i definitely believe that Markus is a good coder, thus any kind of copy protection wouldn't affect sound quality, something which always was a major concern, and which always should be.

I still don't trust Tone2 software and refuse to install it. They lost all respect in my mind when I saw they scanned and silentely deleted files they decided were illegal during installation. While I understand Tone2's frustration with piracy I also know the pitfalls of professional software development and how incredibly difficult it is to produce code that does not contain bugs or unintended side effects. I'm all for melting guis or fun jokes planted in the illegal copies but to add this to freeware as a vector to attack other files is something else. I'm not going to let my hard drive be the battleground for someone else's digital crusade.

And where is the proof of this ? Just cos someone said something it became gospel on here.

Show me in a sandbox now how installing Icarus or E2 does what you described up there ?

[ChrisQ]

I examined it and have been running some tests.

What does the copy protection of the recently released Tone2 products do (icarus, Electra 2, Gladiator3):

The software ships with keyfiles. The keyfiles contain the license. If one of the keys is illegaly shared it gets blacklisted.
When the software is installed it checks for blacklisted keys of Tone2 products and resets the product activation to 'unregisted'.

The license agreement on their website confirms this:

"Copyright: The SOFTWARE is owned by Tone2 and is protected by German copyright laws and international treaty provisions. All data enclosed to this software installer, all Tone2 key-files (t2k files) and serials for Tone2 products are property of Tone2. You are not allowed to distribute or modify them without written permission.

Privacy: Tone2 assures to process only data, which is technically necessary or that is intellectual belonging of Tone2. This software will only read, write or modify files which are property of Tone2 or which are technically necessary to grant a proper operation of the software and the copy protection.
Tone2 will not send, submit, distribute or sell any personal data from the user.

Copy protection: This product is copy-protected. The user is not allowed to apply or distribute technologies or knowledge for circumventing the copy protection of Tone2 products. Tone2 products can refuse to operate if technologies for circumventing the copy protection (like cracks) are applied. This product can detect and deactivate technologies for circumventing the copy protection of Tone2 products.

Copyright infringement: Products which contain intellectual belongings of Tone2 use technology to protect against copyright infringement. In the case of significant signs for copyright infringement Tone2 can withdraw the licence."

The protection is similar to what several other audio companies do. The main difference seems to be, that there are no properly working cracks for the Tone2 products. This could explain why prirates rant.

[fmr]

I asked the Tone2 support about this, and they mentioned if the sounds are made from the ground up/from an Init preset it's cool to sample it. However, it's not Ok to record an existing preset (from either Factory content or a Soundbank) and use that plainly as it is.

This pretty much confirms my idea. There is no way they could "copyright" some sound that was built by the user, simply because a tool they made was used to do it.

But there is a question remaining. What is exported: The raw Osc 1 data or the resulting spectrum of the Osc 1 x Osc 1 x modulators interaction? I guess I have to try it to check.

[ChrisQ]

From the EULA when you install Icarus or Gladiator:

"...This product can be used for music production, making records, remixes, commercials, jingles, soundtracks for film, theatre, musicals and computer games. The included sounds and this product can NOT be used for making music or sounds that will be licensed or sold as library music, sound clips or other sample based products. You are not allowed to sample and distribute sounds or waveforms from this product without our written permission. Especially not for creating commercial content for other synthesizers, sample packs, romplers or audio devices."