Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)

[ENV1]

Thank you!!!!!

Somebody gets it.

Im sure there are many people who see it that way.

(To me it seems like its mostly the older generations that dont respond well to anything that reeks of dictatorship because even if they werent involved themselves they all had relatives who fought and died in a long and brutal war for the very rights and liberties that some individuals just dont seem to have any respect for. How quickly people forget.)


PS: Edited the long post, wrote personal but meant private.

[EnGee]

Next they're going to want part of the royalties for any songs we create using their synths because we're using their sounds.

Where does it end?

But they are not! You can make all the hits you want and enjoy all the money you get without giving them a cent!

Don't be like my mother! No! They are not coming to invade us! Relax and enjoy the sun!

[wagtunes]

Next they're going to want part of the royalties for any songs we create using their synths because we're using their sounds.

Where does it end?

But they are not! You can make all the hits you want and enjoy all the money you get without giving them a cent!

Don't be like my mother! No! They are not coming to invade us! Relax and enjoy the sun!

I'm probably old enough to be your mother. Well, your father anyway.

[EnGee]

You are only 8 years older than me but yes miracles happen sometimes,

[ENV1]

Its always a gradual process.

Just a little thing here, then a little thing there, then a little thing everywhere.

Just check your history books, the shit never hits the fan like BOOM.

Its a progressive process, slow but steady, creeping in like a thief in the night because people do nothing.

After all its just this little thing?

Why make mountains out of molehills?

And so it keeps progressing.

A little bit here, a little bit there.

Like a bucket getting fuller and fuller with each drop.

And after a while, before you even realized it, the shits a-boilin and you do what youre told or else.

And then what do you do?

Formally request a reversal?

Sorry man, but it never worked that way.

If people arent vigilant and take good care of their rights and liberties then somebody else will.

And needless to say that this was never, ever, to the benefit of the people.


But enough about that. People either get it or they dont. Thats the way it always was.

[EnGee]

Sorry! I don't get it!

My rights are fine. I don't see any problem in using Tone2 synths. So that I'm going to buy them when I have enough money

[LeVzi]

Next they're going to want part of the royalties for any songs we create using their synths because we're using their sounds.

Where does it end?

But they are not! You can make all the hits you want and enjoy all the money you get without giving them a cent!

Don't be like my mother! No! They are not coming to invade us! Relax and enjoy the sun!

I'm probably old enough to be your mother. Well, your father anyway.

No definitely his mother.

But unless I grossly misunderstand this whole situation, we are only talking about the stock wavetables in the synths that ship WITH it. They are the intellectual property of MK or whoever made them under license to T2 ? That's pretty standard imo, nothing new there.

I can't find the bit where Markus said any future WT's you make are still our property and you cannot use them outside of a T2 synth, someone care to point that bit out ?

[exmatproton]

Next they're going to want part of the royalties for any songs we create using their synths because we're using their sounds.

Where does it end?

But they are not! You can make all the hits you want and enjoy all the money you get without giving them a cent!

Don't be like my mother! No! They are not coming to invade us! Relax and enjoy the sun!

I'm probably old enough to be your mother. Well, your father anyway.

No definitely his mother.

But unless I grossly misunderstand this whole situation, we are only talking about the stock wavetables in the synths that ship WITH it. They are the intellectual property of MK or whoever made them under license to T2 ? That's pretty standard imo, nothing new there.

I can't find the bit where Markus said any future WT's you make are still our property and you cannot use them outside of a T2 synth, someone care to point that bit out ?

Maybe it's better to ask that to the dev himself.
But, as far as i understood this discussion;

There is a difference between a 'raw saw' sound, rendered by gladiator and a mangled wavetable sound, rendered by gladiator. As soon as one uses the build in mangle tools, T2 (company) sees it as a 'non-generic' and copyrighted wavetable. Because of it's build in tools.

(Correct me if i am wrong)

And the copyrighted wt isn't to be used in other synths from other dev's. Unless a license fee has been paid.

[EnGee]

This was Markus post:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=506788&start=165#p7111949

He said:

Q: Are i allowed to use sounds of Tone2 synthesizers in my commercial music production?
A: Yes. Of course! You do not have to ask for a permission.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to release a commerical soundset for a Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: No. That's fine. If you need technical assistance feel free to contact us.

Q: I am a sound designer and want to use a Tone2 synth for generating commercial content for a non-Tone2 synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes, since many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material.

Q: I am Urs Heckmann. I want to use Tone2 Gladiator and Icarus to generate wavetables for my upcoming wavetable synth. Do i have to ask Tone2 for a permission?
A: Yes. We need to protect our intellectual efforts, wavetables and samples from being used in other competitors synths or products.
Many of our wavetables and waveforms are copyrighted material. Icarus and Gladiator can generate new wavetables with a single mouse-button-click. Clicking on a button itself is not a 'creative process'. Beside of that many algorithms for generating and modifying waveforms use coprighted material as source data.
We have contacted Urs Heckmann and offered to him, that he can legally license our algorithms, waveforms and wavetables. So far Urs Heckmann did not agree on a payment.

Now, let's have a practical example. I use Gladiator (or Icarus) and I liked one piece of melody done using one wavetable of theirs and one of their preset.
I export that wavetable (or sound) as wav file and then import it to Europa and used it as a base for my other melody playing around with the spectral filter and done one track. I continued this till I made one song. Do I need to contact Tone2 and take permission? Well, in my case I won't do it! Even if they send the police to my house to arrest me! I don't think Tone2 would mind in the first place!

Now, I want to use that track in Europa to make a killer preset that I get paid from Propellerhead because they advertise it as what Europa can do. In this case I would contact Tone2 and ask for their permission, because I'm using their efforts as part of advertising for a product by another company.

It is just a common sense people!

[woodsdenis]

Next they're going to want part of the royalties for any songs we create using their synths because we're using their sounds.

Where does it end?

But they are not! You can make all the hits you want and enjoy all the money you get without giving them a cent!

Don't be like my mother! No! They are not coming to invade us! Relax and enjoy the sun!

I'm probably old enough to be your mother. Well, your father anyway.

No definitely his mother.

But unless I grossly misunderstand this whole situation, we are only talking about the stock wavetables in the synths that ship WITH it. They are the intellectual property of MK or whoever made them under license to T2 ? That's pretty standard imo, nothing new there.

I can't find the bit where Markus said any future WT's you make are still our property and you cannot use them outside of a T2 synth, someone care to point that bit out ?

Sampling:
This product can be used for music production, making records, remixes, commercials, jingles, soundtracks for film, theatre, musicals and computer games. The included sounds and this product can not be used for making music or sounds that will be licensed or sold as library music, sound clips or other sample based products. You are not allowed to sample and distribute sounds or waveforms from this product without our written permission. Especially not for creating commercial content for other synthesizers, sample packs, romplers or audio devices.

No bodies arguing about using T2 wavetable content,patches etc however the following sentence is the issue. The included sounds and this product can not be used for making music or sounds that will be licensed or sold as library music, sound clips or other sample based products.

They are saying the product itself cannot be used, therefore a completely original wav processed by the engine would be in breach. Quite simply ludicrous, similar to Adobe claiming copyright over an original image processed in photoshop.

Also when asked what Library music meant, Markus answered “Magic Music Maker” WTF If this is what he means it should be explicitly written in the EULA, laughable really.

Library music ranges from Hans Zimmer tracks on Exreme Music to royalty free on Audio Jungle. It is simply a method of distribution which requires a license not an outright purchase and includes all the things the EULA says you can do. Another piece of nonsense. ANY piece of music can be licensed using this system and constantly is on a daily basis.

[jclosed]

Umm... What I understand is this:

You are not allowed to sample and use the original wavetable sounds that are included in Gladiator as a for-sale commercial "soundset" or library for another synth or as an for-sale sample set.

That is only reasonable in my opinion.

Secondly - The library's or soundsets that are incorporated in Gladiator, and those that are sold separately for Gladiator by Tone2 are not allowed to be sampled and used as a for-sale commercial "soundset" or library for another synth or as an for-sale sample set.

This is also very reasonable. If you make a sound set for a synth (for instance Omnisphere), you would not like that someone else samples your soundset/library you worked very hard on, and sells it for his/hers own profit without giving you anything back.

However - If you use the wavetables/soundsets and tweak them so they become something completely new, you are of course allowed to sell that as your own soundset/library. You probably have to avoid things like only changing the ADSR or something, but if you create something distinctly different, there would be no problem.

And lastly - If you use any library/soundset in one of your music productions there is no problem. Even if you use a "raw" soundset/wavetable and use it in another synth (like Omnisphere or Europa) to create something new, there will be no problem. That problem only arise if you sample the "raw"sound and try to sell them as commercial library product for Omnisphere or Europa.

This all seems to be very reasonable and very clear to me. This is nothing different as with other synths like Zebra, Omnisphere and so on. Read their licenses and you will see the same stuff mentioned.

Really - I do not get where all this fuss is about...

[aMUSEd]

The fuss is just because a couple of people misunderstood what was being asked and made an issue of something that shouldn't have been a problem (ie importing original waves to create original wavetables, not 'ripping' Tone2 created content).

[Urs]

Really - I do not get where all this fuss is about...

Like aMUSEd says, the fuss was never about that.

The fuss is about "what if I open my *own* sample/wavetable in Gladiator/Icarus, use the tools to edit it and save it as a .wav file for a different synth". Good wavetable editors are sparse, sometimes you gotta grasp for straws to make something great.

Markus made it unmistakably clear to me that pressing the wrong button (some kind of randomizer) will somehow introduce data based on analysis of his content into my content. Therefore, some editing methods are fit to void or "mash up" the copyright of the exported waveform. Which makes Tone2 products effectively unusable for the purpose I was asking for. Hence, we use something else and we will recommend something else.

The fuss - for me - is furthermore about people who repeatedly claim that I was going to deliberately infringe on Tone2's copyright. Which obviously I wasn't, otherwise I wouldn't have asked...? Or, as ENV1 wonderfully put it "never minding of course that with most people this probably goes without saying anyway."

[fmr]

Sorry! I don't get it!

My rights are fine. I don't see any problem in using Tone2 synths. So that I'm going to buy them when I have enough money

So, you don't create sounds in wavetable synths? Or do you stick to the wavetables that come with them?

I, for once, am an old fan of wavetable synths (since the times of the old PPG) and always wanted to use original wavetables. I was able to do that with Waldorf Microwaves, using SoundDiver (yes, SoundDiver was able to analyze a sound, and synthesize a wavetable out of it, and NO, they never claimed copyrights).

Then came Concrete FX Kubik. Then Reaktor (yes, it can do wavetables, although not creating them). Then Komplexer. Then Serum, then a lot of others, including Falcon and HALion. And I use AudioTerm, and WaveEdit. I am used to creating wavetables and exchange them between all these synths (at least the ones that allow loading wavetables). And I never care where I create the wavetables. They are done with MY sounds, therefore, they are MINE. Simple enough for you?

[SLiC]

Anyway, I'm not sure if I choose between Gladiator and Icarus, which one it could be. Probably I'll get one of them as they both are easy to use program without even the need for manual.

If you can scrape up the dough to buy Gladiator now, you could actually purchase both of them. BestService.de is having a two-for-one sale on Tone2 products.

This is really excellent! Thanks
Do you know till when this offer?

Still on today- I couldnt resist and got Gladiator and Icarus