Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)

[AndreasH]

But that is the point. It was always about importing our *own* samples, then slice them up in Wavetables, then save as .wav file.

My posting wasn't adress to your situation with Tone2 (i don't understand them too) - just for people who don't know it's possible to protect those wavetables in a different way (not only audible).

[Stefken]

people who repeatedly claim that I was going to deliberately infringe on Tone2's copyright. Which obviously I wasn't, otherwise I wouldn't have asked...?

Maybe not infringing, but it did sound like you were looking for a loophole.
Also saying things towards Tone 2 like "what are you going to do about it" does not help.

It's like avoiding taxes. It's legit but not very social.
If it were just information you were after, you could just have contacted Tone2. But I guess you already knew Tone2 isn't an easy player like Steve Duda.

But thing is, I was not "looking for a loophole" and I don't understand how people come to that conclusion from my post, or any of them. I'm also not avoiding taxes or anything else that's fishy.

I guess it was in the way you were reluctant to take the official road and how you responded towards Tone2 when they contacted you.

By the way, I did not imply that you avoid taxes. It was just a comparison/example of following the letter of the law versus the intent of the law. Just to be clear about that.

[Stefken]

It doesn't realy matter if you proccess a wavetable through a dozen plugins, effects and re-record it, if it has a waterprint from a tool like https://audiowatermarking.info - it's always there and it's pretty simple to proof from where it came or who made it. If someone claims his copyright on it, you may get into trouble.

But that is the point. It was always about importing our *own* samples, then slice them up in Wavetables, then save as .wav file.

There is no point in time where any content from the manufacturer of the software is involved. The claim of attempted copyright infringement is therefore moot.

But you do use their algorithms/technology to produce source material to be used in a non-Tone 2 synth. You're not producing music here but 'resources for a dev project'. It's my understanding that Tone2 does not allow this unless, as a dev company, you license their technology.

[wagtunes]

It doesn't realy matter if you proccess a wavetable through a dozen plugins, effects and re-record it, if it has a waterprint from a tool like https://audiowatermarking.info - it's always there and it's pretty simple to proof from where it came or who made it. If someone claims his copyright on it, you may get into trouble.

Please, get real. There is no watermark on audio files that is audible in any way or can be proven in any way. This is just fantasy made up mumbo jumbo.

[wagtunes]

It doesn't realy matter if you proccess a wavetable through a dozen plugins, effects and re-record it, if it has a waterprint from a tool like https://audiowatermarking.info - it's always there and it's pretty simple to proof from where it came or who made it. If someone claims his copyright on it, you may get into trouble.

But that is the point. It was always about importing our *own* samples, then slice them up in Wavetables, then save as .wav file.

There is no point in time where any content from the manufacturer of the software is involved. The claim of attempted copyright infringement is therefore moot.

But you do use their algorithms/technology to produce source material to be used in a non-Tone 2 synth. You're not producing music here but 'resources for a dev project'. It's my understanding that Tone2 does not allow this unless, as a dev company, you license their technology.

Again, let them try to prove it after you've gone through my 10 step process.

Good luck with that. Let me know how you make out.

[woodsdenis]

Its really very simple as Urs as stated repeatably, Tone 2 do not allow you to import your OWN wavs into Icarus, mangle them and then sell them as your own samples. They claim that the mangling process inserts a copyrightable element into your original file. Total BS.

This is a completely different and separate issue to changing an included wavetable beyond recognition and getting away with it.

One is a ridiculous assertion and fundamentally dangerous precedent , the other is still illegal, wether you get away with it or not, or wether its enforceable or not.

[Urs]

I guess it was in the way you were reluctant to take the official road and how you responded towards Tone2 when they contacted you.

I don't think you are aware about the content of the phone call. All I can say is, I was intuitively right to not contact them in the first place. It would have been perfectly fine to just read their EULA (or ask in a forum full of people who did). Which btw. is in stark contrast to what Mr. Krause says on the phone.

The *only* thing I would have had to contact them for is permission to mention their software in our documentation and marketing material, e.g. like "Hey, if you want to create your own wavetables, you can use following 3rd party products: ..." and "btw. we use the same standard format for wavetables as these products: ... - so you can use our waveforms in their software too!".

I call this a missed opportunity, but hey, everyone like he pleases.

[Urs]

But you do use their algorithms/technology to produce source material to be used in a non-Tone 2 synth. You're not producing music here but 'resources for a dev project'. It's my understanding that Tone2 does not allow this unless, as a dev company, you license their technology.

Pity, we'll never find out if this would stand in court.

[Urs]

One is a ridiculous assertion and fundamentally dangerous precedent , the other is still illegal, wether you get away with it or not, or wether its enforceable or not.

Exactly!

[Stefken]

It doesn't realy matter if you proccess a wavetable through a dozen plugins, effects and re-record it, if it has a waterprint from a tool like https://audiowatermarking.info - it's always there and it's pretty simple to proof from where it came or who made it. If someone claims his copyright on it, you may get into trouble.

But that is the point. It was always about importing our *own* samples, then slice them up in Wavetables, then save as .wav file.

There is no point in time where any content from the manufacturer of the software is involved. The claim of attempted copyright infringement is therefore moot.

But you do use their algorithms/technology to produce source material to be used in a non-Tone 2 synth. You're not producing music here but 'resources for a dev project'. It's my understanding that Tone2 does not allow this unless, as a dev company, you license their technology.

Again, let them try to prove it after you've gone through my 10 step process.

Good luck with that. Let me know how you make out.

I'm not familiar with audio watermarking but I guess they can if the signature stays in the material all the time.
Anyway, as you said, no one is going to bother to check in that situation.
It's another situation when one dev company that sells a lot of synths uses the technology from another dev company in the process of developing a synth. The request to license the technology is quite common then.

[Delta Sign]

One is a ridiculous assertion and fundamentally dangerous precedent , the other is still illegal, wether you get away with it or not, or wether its enforceable or not.

Yeah, people seem to fail to understand that. It's like using demo versions of plugins for commercial work. You can totally do that and no one will ever know, but that doesn't make it right, neither legally nor morally.

[Urs]

Ok then.

Some sound designer makes some great soundbanks for Icarus which he delivers with some great wavetables. Some guy buys one of those soundbanks even though he doesn't own Icarus. So then he copies the wavetables into his Serum directory and creates a hit in Serum. Who is Tone2 gonna sue, and on what grounds exactly?

[chk071]

Urs, i don't know if it suits your need, but, there is this: http://synthtech.com/waveedit/

I wonder why noone has developed a good wavetable editor and creator tool yet. Seems like there's a real market for that. Given the output files are compatible with the synth's formats, of course.

[woodsdenis]

Ok then.

Some sound designer makes some great soundbanks for Icarus which he delivers with some great wavetables. Some guy buys one of those soundbanks even though he doesn't own Icarus. So then he copies the wavetables into his Serum directory and creates a hit in Serum. Who is Tone2 gonna sue, and on what grounds exactly?

It would depend on the agreement with T2 ? I would view ( I am not a lawyer) wavetables as sound files .
Like any audio, you can sell and transfer the copyright to a third party. A record contract is a prime example of this, they own the masters. If T2 own the masters in this case, they are licensing them to you under the provisions in their EULA, like every sample company does right now.

If however the developer has not done this and T2 are in fact just acting as a distributor /agent for the product then the developers EULA come into play. I would suggest that any sane one would allow use in another product.

Actually I would suggest posters here go to Urs FB discussion, a lot of wise and industry opinion.

[AndreasH]

I'm not familiar with audio watermarking but I guess they can if the signature stays in the material all the time.

Tools like AWT doing exactly this. It's like a DNA, you can't remove it. It's not hearable and without a tool, even not visible.