Reaktor Blocks vs. Softube Modular

[Stefken]

What people are asking for is that if you are going to use your own firm as a basis for argument that you support that argument with data in some way. Urs does that, so if you want the same respect that Urs gets then you should follow his lead a bit more closely.

I concur that if you bring the argument of your firm up that many times, you have to give specifics.

I for one see enough reasons why his sales are NOT representative and that his relative sales are not indicative of the quality of the instrument but of the preset library itself.
In other words, his softtube library is his best. And that's it.

But if I compare his library with one of Aiyn Zahev, euh ....let's just say that one is a hobbyist and one is a pro. That's about as gentle as I can put it.

[EnGee]

What's the verdict?

There are long threads about each of them, but I'm wondering what people who have both of them think.
I've got Reaktor, but not Softube.

I had Reaktor 5 and upgraded to 6 later. I sold it recently and bought Softube Modular. I like Modular more than the blocks in Reaktor as I can trace the modulations easier, while in Reaktor it is impossible to see which A or B is modulating this part or that part, unless opening the Edit mode.

Reaktor blocks are of course more powerful but still I find Modular with some additional modules can have complex routing and modulations. Unless you have a good background in Modular synths, then you need to spend serious time learning, so it is not an easy walk especially if you add Buchla 259e module or Rubicon for example!

There is a Modular forum here you can read more about them I guess

[WasteLand]

i own both, i have komplete 11 ultimate and therefore reaktor, and blocks. reaktor is great.
i have bought the softube modular, with all the modular specific add-on modules, on sale. it is great.

reaktor is infinite, and many ensembles, and blocks. for me to program, not so easy, but i am learning it.

the way softube modular works, making a patch/preset, is fun, it flows... it isn't that extensive as reaktor, but i can do crazy things with it, even with the most simple modules, patching can be done in so many ways (it isn't limited to cv-cv, for example, audio to cv, cv to audio, or trigger. everything is possible).

i also have vcv rack, but the softube has more a west-coast feel, which i like. vcv can do that also, but, it is always a feeling, what gets you into an instrument, softube modular a can play with it, for hours. and i only scratch the surface. i learned by the way more about synthesis, in these last weeks, than in a year... i program a lot of soft-synths, and especially the arp 2600 i have learned now, has more possibilities than i imaginated, or perheps better: i understand it better, i already made strange patches.

softube modular is not completely west-coast, but with the modules i have, you can do so many things, complex patches, that creates strange, but powerfull soundscapes.

reaktor is the next step...

i like them both, they are different. it is a personal opinion, of course. cv, gate, trigger, audio all are basically the "same", and that makes it challenging, inspiring. yes, i know the diference between cv, gate, trigger, audio, but they are all "waves", voltage waves..

[lnikj]

One thing to consider is that there just aren't that many Softube Modular presets out there for sale. Search for "softube modular" in the Soundware forum, and literally all the results are about the two wagtunes libraries. I'm not going to search for all the other synths, but for example, there are 87 threads with some variation of "zebra" in the title, with 20 of those being started in the last year. Those numbers are certainly a more accurate representation of the popularity of the various synths, but they also help explain the relative success of the Modular presets within wagtunes' lineup: basically nobody else is selling presets for it.

If I were to conjecture what your sales mean I would argue that they indicate that (your) customers are confused and/or intimidated by modular synthesis.

I think it’s a combination of both of these allied to some of Modular's shortcomings.

People use Modular for different reasons. Many people come to its use from a traditional DAW based set up/music making background where they are looking for sounds to sit in a mix and Modular is capable of producing very high quality analog sounds (with a CPU hit to match!). Softube acknowledges/encourages this through the supply of factory presets that are, in the main, tailored to such usage.

There are plenty of people out there looking for sounds for a synth who buy presets and there are only a few available.

There is another group of users though who picked up Modular and its addons because they want to experiment with, and learn about, modular synthesis, and in the process use some accurate emulations of popular Eurorack modules.

Such usage is, however, challenging with Modular. It is relatively harder to use it in the way that people like to use VCVRack - to produce self contained pieces, often wholly or partly generative. Apart from the CPU hit the more significant problem is that Modular is so poorly supplied with innovative sequencing possibilities, for example euclidean sequencers, turing machines, sources of uncertainty, shift registers, sequential switches etc etc. This is not to mention the vast number of other types of modules that have failed to make an appearance in Modular yet, and the relative lack of sophistication in many of the modules that are supplied.

Modular simply doesn't foster the same spirit of experimentation and learning that VCVRack does and there is no active patch sharing community (cf. the vast number of VCV patches on patchstorage), homemade youtube tutorials etc..

This, I think, may lead (novice ?) Modular users to the purchase of patches, in the hope of learning from them. Maybe.

[SLiC]

I am a eurorack user (300hp) and for me VCV rack is the closest experience to eurorack plus it is free, has hundred's of free modules and has a VST plugin that pipes sound bad midi control (so you can use all of the modulators in eurorack etc). The Mutable Instruments module alone make this must have, accrue firmware port, free for VCV rack or only 1 available for softube and you have to buy it! I couldn't realy see any advantage of softube modular even if VCV wasnt free other than a couple o the 3rd party modules....but there are free equivalent's in VCV user modules....

Reactor blocks are also supurb and can do east coast on steroids. Fab modular synth though still feels more like reaktor than the simplicity and euro emulation of VCV.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Just to chime in with my 2¢ here, but I’ve read lots of threads with contributions by wagtunes and I don’t understand the why anybody has a problem with him. From my perspective, the attitude so many take with him is simply rude. Of course I have not read every post over the years so, perhaps I’m simply ignorant. But from what I have seen, this rudeness and disrespect towards him is unwarranted.

If I wanted to show you a good example of ONE of the reasons why Wagtunes is disrespected around here, these last pages would be a good place to start.

All it took was for someone to ask for some context to his contention that his own library sales were any indication of the sales of 'Modular'. I don't think experimental.crow was out of line to request such information, as it's pertinent; Nor do I feel the way he asked was disrespectful. Wag's basically 'spat' back that he can post whatever he wants...and some nonsense about apples

All of this in lieu of trying to understand why context for his statement is necessary for it to make any sense. And he clearly doesn't understand why, hence his using of Urs' statement as some justification (Nothing wrong with Urs stating that Zebra is his best selling synth. He is not using this fact to make a judgment on another unrelated position. If he were, people would ask him for the pertinent data that gave context to his stance).

Everyone posts nonsense from time to time, and everyone has moments when they are a bit aggressive when posting. My real issue is what he typically does next when he gets called out (Perfectly shown in this thread) i.e he resorts to playing the victim, and then, often, the martyr. The victim: It's the internet; It's the anonymity (In his given context for this, he is just as anonymous as anyone else); It's because he's an easy target (This is where he openly admits to easily getting angry, which is at least some part-admission of responsibility for why he gets the treatment he gets). Then martyr mode, where he explains how he is usually able to take it all on the chin, absorbing everyone's ire. However, "today" was just one of those days when he could tolerate it no more.

Saying all that, there are definitely people who will just jump in for the bloodsport, which just confuses the issue. Even in the last few pages, there are people who think that Wagtunes needs to declare his sales just because he often mentions them. No! His business finances are not the purview of anyone else. Were it the case that Wag's bragged about the sale of his libraries, then people would be within their rights to demand that he 'put up or shut up'. However, Steven doesn't brag about sales. He only talks about them in relative terms i.e How surprised he is that 'X' library sold 33.34576% less than 'Z' library, or that his libraries for 'A' synth always sell well. No context is needed for any of these statements...just the same as with Urs' declaration of sales trends.

What does need context, given with absolute data (Not relative, Waggie), is why Wag's believes his relative success with his 'Modular' libraries are any indication of whether Softube sold the amount of units considered necessary to continue investment into making further modules. I'm guess that in absolute terms he didn't sell enough to be of any statistical significance in terms of Softube's own sales analytics. I might be wrong

What's surprising to me is why it's any surprise to Steven that his 'Modular' libraries sell better, as I'd have imagined this as part of understanding his market. A synth like 'Modular' is alien territory to even the most knowledgable subtractive-synth users. It makes sense that mod-novices would be clamouring for presets that they could reverse-engineer, to learn how it all works. Add in the notoriously bad initial preset system, and it makes even more sense that he would shift units.

[wagtunes]

Just to chime in with my 2¢ here, but I’ve read lots of threads with contributions by wagtunes and I don’t understand the why anybody has a problem with him. From my perspective, the attitude so many take with him is simply rude. Of course I have not read every post over the years so, perhaps I’m simply ignorant. But from what I have seen, this rudeness and disrespect towards him is unwarranted.

If I wanted to show you a good example of ONE of the reasons why Wagtunes is disrespected around here, these last pages would be a good place to start.

All it took was for someone to ask for some context to his contention that his own library sales were any indication of the sales of 'Modular'. I don't think experimental.crow was out of line to request such information, as it's pertinent; Nor do I feel the way he asked was disrespectful. Wag's basically 'spat' back that he can post whatever he wants...and some nonsense about apples

All of this in lieu of trying to understand why context for his statement is necessary for it to make any sense. And he clearly doesn't understand why, hence his using of Urs' statement as some justification (Nothing wrong with Urs stating that Zebra is his best selling synth. He is not using this fact to make a judgment on another unrelated position. If he were, people would ask him for the pertinent data that gave context to his stance).

Everyone posts nonsense from time to time, and everyone has moments when they are a bit aggressive when posting. My real issue is what he typically does next when he gets called out (Perfectly shown in this thread) i.e he resorts to playing the victim, and then, often, the martyr. The victim: It's the internet; It's the anonymity (In his given context for this, he is just as anonymous as anyone else); It's because he's an easy target (This is where he openly admits to easily getting angry, which is at least some part-admission of responsibility for why he gets the treatment he gets). Then martyr mode, where he explains how he is usually able to take it all on the chin, absorbing everyone's ire. However, "today" was just one of those days when he could tolerate it no more.

Saying all that, there are definitely people who will just jump in for the bloodsport, which just confuses the issue. Even in the last few pages, there are people who think that Wagtunes needs to declare his sales just because he often mentions them. No! His business finances are not the purview of anyone else. Were it the case that Wag's bragged about the sale of his libraries, then people would be within their rights to demand that he 'put up or shut up'. However, Steven doesn't brag about sales. He only talks about them in relative terms i.e How surprised he is that 'X' library sold 33.34576% less than 'Z' library, or that his libraries for 'A' synth always sell well. No context is needed for any of these statements...just the same as with Urs' declaration of sales trends.

What does need context, given with absolute data (Not relative, Waggie), is why Wag's believes his relative success with his 'Modular' libraries are any indication of whether Softube sold the amount of units considered necessary to continue investment into making further modules. I'm guess that in absolute terms he didn't sell enough to be of any statistical significance in terms of Softube's own sales analytics. I might be wrong

What's surprising to me is why it's any surprise to Steven that his 'Modular' libraries sell better, as I'd have imagined this as part of understanding his market. A synth like 'Modular' is alien territory to even the most knowledgable subtractive-synth users. It makes sense that mod-novices would be clamouring for presets that they could reverse-engineer, to learn how it all works. Add in the notoriously bad initial preset system, and it makes even more sense that he would shift units.

I know we've had our differences but this was very well said. For starters, yes, there are many times when I overreact to things people say here. That has come from 21 years of this crap. It's hard for me to put things into perspective. I'm trying and I think I've gotten better. Of course I'm really not as involved in this forum as I used to be. Just look at all the threads on this front page that, in the past, I would have been all over that I now have nothing to do with. Just stopped caring about most of this stuff.

Also, yes, it is quite possible that Softube does well for me for all the reasons stated here, intimidation, lack of available sets, etc.

Maybe I should give up making stuff for every other synth and just make Softube libraries. I'll dominate the market and become known as the Softube king.

Anyway, thanks for a very sensible and well thought out post.

See, now I bet you thought I was going to argue with you.

[EnGee]

[wagtunes]

Hey good one. I really hated them when they started sounding like mice.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Such a great song, ruined because the Gibb brothers thought it was a song that needed their voices, rather than handing it over to a female group

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Anyway, thanks for a very sensible and well thought out post.

Right! Now we just need to stop you from ripping people new arseholes for daring to offer you 'sound' advice about your music

[wagtunes]

Anyway, thanks for a very sensible and well thought out post.

Right! Now we just need to stop you from ripping people new arseholes for daring to offer you 'sound' advice about your music

Well, I'm starting to take it. Noise made some valid criticisms about my orchestrations, as painful as it was for me to hear, and so now I'm taking the steps needed to correct them. He's been very helpful. Hope he's reading this.

But let's just get this back on topic to Reaktor vs Softube.

Personally, because of the sheer number of modules available, I prefer Reaktor to Softube. Unfortunately, I hate Reaktor's patch system which is why I'd never make a library for it.

[nordickvr]

...Personally, because of the sheer number of modules available, I prefer Reaktor to Softube. Unfortunately, I hate Reaktor's patch system which is why I'd never make a library for it...

I'd definitely wish for a more intuitive patch managing too.
I can't see how this could happen regarding retro compatibility though.
Not sure how the whole Reaktor's architecture would allow for it neither.
Its a synthesis ecosystem, not specifically a synth, so to speak.
I'd choose it over Softube Modular, that's for sure.
That said, patching modular with all those wires going anywhere is a real joy

[ghettosynth]

Anyway, thanks for a very sensible and well thought out post.

Right! Now we just need to stop you from ripping people new arseholes for daring to offer you 'sound' advice about your music

Well, I'm starting to take it. Noise made some valid criticisms about my orchestrations, as painful as it was for me to hear, and so now I'm taking the steps needed to correct them. He's been very helpful. Hope he's reading this.

But let's just get this back on topic to Reaktor vs Softube.

Personally, because of the sheer number of modules available, I prefer Reaktor to Softube. Unfortunately, I hate Reaktor's patch system which is why I'd never make a library for it.

There's no point really to making patches for "Reaktor", you make them for the synths in Reaktor, and Blocks isn't a synth, per se. I actually like Reaktor's patch system, but that's because I really understand how to use Reaktor and can see the advantage of the flexibility that hierarchical patches provide.

I can't see it being a good market for a patch vendor though. It's barely a market for third party instrument vendors.

[I'm Ant]

I use both