KVR Audio

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:16 pm

Hi!

Just how much better can I expect a sound card to improve my music?

I’ve got a mid 2012 13” MBP, 2.9ghz i7 with 16gb RAM. I can’t upgrade the RAM (it’s a university computer that I’ve been using on loan until they ask for it back).

In the past I used the first MOTU 828 and then years later an Apogee One. I don’t have money for a new 828 and don’t even want one with so many inputs at the moment because years of traveling made me go 100% ITB. I wouldn’t buy an Apogee One again because the build quality on the first one was so poor. My budget is about $350 anyway, and I’ve only got a Roland V-Synth now that I’m not traveling again.

I’m wondering just how much better my music will sound upgrading from the stock sound card to an interface in the $150-$350 range. I’m using old Tannoy Reveal monitors connected to an amp I can’t remember the brand off. No acoustic treatment in the room, but I make electronic music, influenced by lots of dub techno, deepish tech house, lofi sloppy beats, ambient often using cheap headphones, so I haven’t considered it a priority (I know it’s far from ideal, and my mixes prove it, I often have to re-mix based on playback on a stereo, cell phone, car, etc. It’s also a hobby, so I’m not too keen on permanently installing treatment since I rent.)

Anyway, I’m looking to get a new interface (and new laptop, which I have to anyway at some point) and I’m wondering how to stretch my coin - I don’t think spending lots of money will necessarily translate into better sound, but I’m wondering at what point will I experience diminishing returns.

Also, I like field recordings (using only my phone ATM).

To that end, I am looking at the Zoom U-44 on the low end, but I can’t find the numbers on latency and quality. At the high end, I’m looking at the Zoom H6 because it doubles as an interface, and the Zoom TAC2R. I’ve heard the TAC has good latency and includes a MIDI port, but so does the U-44.

My needs are primarily for VSTis.

Any advice, help, feedback on the Zooms or alternative suggestions would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 am

I doubt wether an audio interface will make you produce significantly better. The mac DAC is not the weakest link.

djanthonyw · Post by **djanthonyw** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:09 am

An audio interface is going to have a flatter, more neutral sound.

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:18 pm

BertKoor wrote:I doubt wether an audio interface will make you produce significantly better. The mac DAC is not the weakest link.

Thanks for responding.

So in your opinion, what is? Acoustic treatment?

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:19 pm

djanthonyw wrote:An audio interface is going to have a flatter, more neutral sound.

Thanks for responding.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:04 pm

It wont necessarily improve your music, but an audio interface will provide a better, more detailed, more accurate picture of what's going on in your mixes.

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:09 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:It wont necessarily improve your music, but an audio interface will provide a better, more detailed, more accurate picture of what's going on in your mixes.

Thanks for responding.

I reread my OP and when I said “make my music sound better,” I didn’t mean make my music better per se. So, I’m wondering just how much better, and what is the best bang for the buck to maximize the value of this improvement for my needs.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:15 pm

Noticeably better imho. I recently recommended an NI interface to a Macbook Pro user friend of mine. He is very happy with the results ... after his initial scepticism.
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... e-audio-6/

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:33 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:Noticeably better imho. I recently recommended an NI interface to a Macbook Pro user friend of mine. He is very happy with the results ... after his initial scepticism.
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... e-audio-6/

Thanks for the NI KA6 tip. It’s in the budget and has some good reviews.

If you don’t mind another question:

The KA6 has it seems about 5ms round trip latency, while I’ve read that the TAC2R has anywhere from 1-2.8ms RTL.

Just how should I evaluate the differences in latency for my needs? I.e. at what point am I paying for latency performance which provides diminishing returns?

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:45 pm

Not one bit, seriously people overblown the sound improvement form a dedicated audio interface. Yes, it is going to have some better specs (noise floor, distortion) but nothing really significant to make a real difference in your music.

Your audio interface is not holding you back, monitors or better headphones will make a bigger difference to actually hear what you are doing properly.

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:51 pm

perpetual3 wrote:
thecontrolcentre wrote:Noticeably better imho. I recently recommended an NI interface to a Macbook Pro user friend of mine. He is very happy with the results ... after his initial scepticism.
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... e-audio-6/
Thanks for the NI KA6 tip. It’s in the budget and has some good reviews.

If you don’t mind another question:

The KA6 has it seems about 5ms round trip latency, while I’ve read that the TAC2R has anywhere from 1-2.8ms RTL.

Just how should I evaluate the differences in latency for my needs? I.e. at what point am I paying for latency performance which provides diminishing returns?

Are you recording? or playing "live" through a keyboard? if not then latency doesnt matter.

As for brands that are good reducing latency: RME, Steinberg in the cheaper category, but on mac almost all brads have good latency, on windows only RME.

perpetual3 · Post by **perpetual3** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:25 pm

I use lots of VST instruments. I was under the impression that latency performance was crucial for VSTi playback? Otherwise I use a Roland V-Synth.

So, the stock Macbook sound card is fine?

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:11 am

perpetual3 wrote:I use lots of VST instruments. I was under the impression that latency performance was crucial for VSTi playback? Otherwise I use a Roland V-Synth.

So, the stock Macbook sound card is fine?

Latency is simply the time it takes either from recording the audio: in to the interface, into the DAW and out again in the speakers, or the time it takes from playing a key in your keyboard to trigger the VSTi to hear the sound on your speakers.

On Mac, the native CoreAudio driver is able to handle low latency well.
So when recording vocalist it matters, when practicing an instrument it matters, but on mac that is mainly solved by the native audio driver.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:19 am

rod_zero wrote:Not one bit, seriously people overblown the sound improvement form a dedicated audio interface.

I agree. My Steinberg interfaces (UR12 and UR22 mk2) don't sound significantly better than my Soundblaster Z sound card (actually, the Soundblaster Z sounds pretty awesome considering it's "just" a consumer card). On the other hand, the Soundblaster Z sounds significantly better than onboard audio chips, or the one in my keyboard. So... if you happen to have a decent consumer card (mine cost 70 €), you're well set. BUT, most audio interfaces will have better ASIO drivers than consumer/gamer cards. And that could be a pretty important factor. Unless you want to use ADIO4ALL, which gives you a pretty good performance/latency compromise. At least better than any of the consumer cards ASIO drivers i tried.

AFAIK, the sound chips in Macs are already pretty decent. After all, they know that Macs are often used for audio production as well. On the other hand, i haven't really come along many people using just the Mac sound chips. Typically, people DO have a dedicated audio interface, for connectivity already. I don't think audio interfaces are very expensive too, so...

low_low · Post by **low_low** » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 am

For ambient recording the most important things in descending order (imho) are microphone, preamp quality, recorder, then weight and battery power (ie portability) ... laptop has too much fan and electronic buzzy noises for ambient, so a portable recorder is important imho.

Latency is mostly an issue playing VSTi live where the latency can cause the notes to lag behind the player and become confusing, influencing and affecting the performance, same for recording music from a live player via VSTi. If you're just using VSTi to record in the daw, imo it doesn't matter, same for playback over a sound system.

5ms latency is really low, anyway.

Record quality in general for mics, guitar, bass, etc, is mostly a function of preamp quality, again imho

Latency on live recording of vocals, etc, isn't a big issue either because most interfaces have monitor port and you can put a taste of reverb on it for the singer and record everything dry w/o effects.

all just my opinion

Audio Interface vs Mac Sound card - just how much better?