Two questions about vinyl here.
For years, i have been a fan of Breakbeat Era. they are a Drum n' Bass band with a sexy-voiced singer and Roni Size as a producer. I own many of their CD's, but i finally bought a 6 [[EDIT] It turns out its 7] peice 12" album, and i was blown away by how it sounded on vinyl format, which brings my question:
What makes records sound so beautiful? I know its not simply analogue format, because LP's are superior to magnetic tape as well.
Also, i was listening to a few pieces with headphones, and i noticed that the sound coming out was in 2-channel stereo. How could a phonograph have stereo output?
Meow,
Chase
Some Questions About Vinyl
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
Last edited by The Chase on Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 1981 posts since 26 Oct, 2003 from Toronto
This could be a Pandora's Box you just opened Chase. I have my opinons on the subject, but I'll wait for the true masters and master-ers to debate this one.
Should be interesting.
Should be interesting.
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- Banned
- 4026 posts since 27 Jan, 2004
Well, what I usually say is:
Vinyl is a mechanical format with a continious sound "wave" and not "stepped" values of data like CD (the coldness is determend by the resoulution of digital audio...and 16bit 44.100khz samplerate is not enough to get the sound of a continious waveform that is waaay more pleasing to the ears)
Someone compared a CD to a flourecent light that "flickers" on and of very fast as the gas inside it is reacting with the electricity...to low a "flicker" rate gives you a headache, just like digital in low resolution.
Vinyl has none such issues!
HOWEVER, the massive processing of sound to actually fit the music on a piece of plastic (RIAA filters and amps etc) is a big drawback of vinyl, as is the fact that the longer the tracks, the less fidelity you get towards the center of the record, among other things...
Vinyl also has the ability to get worn out...CD does not.
Well, I´m no expert on these matters (as my arrogant post surely has shown)
But vinyl is great and that´s that
Vinyl is a mechanical format with a continious sound "wave" and not "stepped" values of data like CD (the coldness is determend by the resoulution of digital audio...and 16bit 44.100khz samplerate is not enough to get the sound of a continious waveform that is waaay more pleasing to the ears)
Someone compared a CD to a flourecent light that "flickers" on and of very fast as the gas inside it is reacting with the electricity...to low a "flicker" rate gives you a headache, just like digital in low resolution.
Vinyl has none such issues!
HOWEVER, the massive processing of sound to actually fit the music on a piece of plastic (RIAA filters and amps etc) is a big drawback of vinyl, as is the fact that the longer the tracks, the less fidelity you get towards the center of the record, among other things...
Vinyl also has the ability to get worn out...CD does not.
Well, I´m no expert on these matters (as my arrogant post surely has shown)
But vinyl is great and that´s that
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
Yes, but vinyl seems to add a color that magnetic tape doesn't, when tape doesn't have a sample rate, either. Plus, wouldn't the "steps" become a "wave" the moment the signal hits the D/A converter?mindless wrote:Well, what I usually say is:
Vinyl is a mechanical format with a continious sound "wave" and not "stepped" values of data like CD (the coldness is determend by the resoulution of digital audio...and 16bit 44.100khz samplerate is not enough to get the sound of a continious waveform that is waaay more pleasing to the ears)
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original flipper original flipper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8999
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex
HI
You say 12" 45rpm's - well that format is just about the perfect format for putting on OBSCENE levels throughout the audio spectrum.
I am not a techie but I have a long experience of working in analogue and mastering/dub cutting studios and what I can tell you is the 12" 45rpm or disco 45 as many people call them have more room on the surface for a cutting lathe to put on more level and in particular LOW and HIGH frequencies, whereas if you had the same on 12" LP or 33.3 the levels would come down - this is all due to the groove that is cut into the vinyl (well the master ACETATE) during the cutting process - obviously the grooves are MUCH closer on an album with several tracks on each side, whereas a 'DISCO 45' might only have a couple of tracks which allows wider grooves to be cut, to maintain a similar level on a long play 33.3 album would simply cause such high levels of modulation (within the groove) that the cartridge needle would jump out the groove!
Yes Vinyl rules in certain respects that CD's will never be able to fully mimic.
Flipper.
You say 12" 45rpm's - well that format is just about the perfect format for putting on OBSCENE levels throughout the audio spectrum.
I am not a techie but I have a long experience of working in analogue and mastering/dub cutting studios and what I can tell you is the 12" 45rpm or disco 45 as many people call them have more room on the surface for a cutting lathe to put on more level and in particular LOW and HIGH frequencies, whereas if you had the same on 12" LP or 33.3 the levels would come down - this is all due to the groove that is cut into the vinyl (well the master ACETATE) during the cutting process - obviously the grooves are MUCH closer on an album with several tracks on each side, whereas a 'DISCO 45' might only have a couple of tracks which allows wider grooves to be cut, to maintain a similar level on a long play 33.3 album would simply cause such high levels of modulation (within the groove) that the cartridge needle would jump out the groove!
Yes Vinyl rules in certain respects that CD's will never be able to fully mimic.
Flipper.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
original flipper wrote:You say 12" 45rpm's - well that format is just about the perfect format for putting on OBSCENE levels throughout the audio spectrum.
original flipper wrote:You say 12" 45rpm's - well that format is just about the perfect format for putting on ULTRA OBSCENE LIMITED EDITION levels throughout the audio spectrum.
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- Banned
- 5089 posts since 12 Jun, 2001 from Wusik Dot Com
Check this out!
http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 651#708651
Doesn't DVD allows you to encode at hither sample-rates and bit-rates? Could that be the solution?
Wk
http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 651#708651
Doesn't DVD allows you to encode at hither sample-rates and bit-rates? Could that be the solution?
Wk
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
That thing is useless. It plays a record digitally - so why not just rip the record and burn it to cd? It even takes the fun out of listening to a record by having a tray that pops out like a cd player.
Solution? Theres no problem - I'm just wondering what the answer to my 2 questions is.WilliamK wrote: Doesn't DVD allows you to encode at hither sample-rates and bit-rates? Could that be the solution?
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- Banned
- 5089 posts since 12 Jun, 2001 from Wusik Dot Com
Hummm, that thing would read with more quality, without touching the record.Chase wrote:That thing is useless. It plays a record digitally - so why not just rip the record and burn it to cd? It even takes the fun out of listening to a record by having a tray that pops out like a cd player.
I think that 16 bits and 44.1khz is not good enought. Maybe we do need 32 bits and 96khz for recordings. Maybe with that it would "feel" like a record. That's what I mean.
Wk
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- KVRist
- 45 posts since 20 Jun, 2003 from new york, new york
From: How do things workAlso, i was listening to a few pieces with headphones, and i noticed that the sound coming out was in 2-channel stereo. How could a phonograph have stereo output?
A phonograph record represents the air pressure fluctuations associated with sound as surface fluctuations in long, spiral groove. This groove is V-shaped, with two walls cut at right angles to one another--hence the "V". Silence, the absence of pressure fluctuations in the air, is represented by a smooth portion of the V groove, while moments of sound are represented by a V-groove with ripples on its two walls. The depths and spacings of the ripples determine the volume and pitch of the sounds and the two walls represent the two stereo channels on which sound is recorded and reproduced.
I cannot play an instrument. I cannot remember melodies. I cannot sing. I have bad timing. I know way too little about counterpoint.
-Robert Henke
-Robert Henke
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
Would the 2 walls matter if it was going through one needle?jcroot wrote:From: How do things workAlso, i was listening to a few pieces with headphones, and i noticed that the sound coming out was in 2-channel stereo. How could a phonograph have stereo output?
A phonograph record represents the air pressure fluctuations associated with sound as surface fluctuations in long, spiral groove. This groove is V-shaped, with two walls cut at right angles to one another--hence the "V". Silence, the absence of pressure fluctuations in the air, is represented by a smooth portion of the V groove, while moments of sound are represented by a V-groove with ripples on its two walls. The depths and spacings of the ripples determine the volume and pitch of the sounds and the two walls represent the two stereo channels on which sound is recorded and reproduced.
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- KVRian
- 1258 posts since 25 Nov, 2003 from London
I've always wondered how a single needle can pick up a signal from each groove wall.
Hopefully someone here can explain better than "how do things work".
Hopefully someone here can explain better than "how do things work".
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- KVRAF
- 3723 posts since 17 Apr, 2002 from Scotland
the vertical movement of the needle is amplitude and the horizontal movement is stereo position.
these two are interpolationalised by a double-clocked freewheel analog amplifier to produce bi-spatial oscillations which are then converted to dual mono "stereo" signals which your ears cna understand.
or something
these two are interpolationalised by a double-clocked freewheel analog amplifier to produce bi-spatial oscillations which are then converted to dual mono "stereo" signals which your ears cna understand.
or something
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Why would you say vinyl sound better than CD? Vinyl add its own distortion due to the imperfect medium. People got used to that distortion and miss it if they can not hear it anymore (on digital recordings). It simply does not sound better to me. CD high fidility sound so much better and if you listen to 24bit recordings it just get even more better.
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- KVRian
- 1258 posts since 25 Nov, 2003 from London
From Encarta:
"Monaural and stereophonic records have different types of grooves. In mono records, both the frequency and amplitude of the signal are stored as side movements in the groove. Only one channel is present. In stereo records, two separate channels are present in one groove. The side movements in the groove store the information for one channel and the vertical movements in the groove store information for the other."
"Monaural and stereophonic records have different types of grooves. In mono records, both the frequency and amplitude of the signal are stored as side movements in the groove. Only one channel is present. In stereo records, two separate channels are present in one groove. The side movements in the groove store the information for one channel and the vertical movements in the groove store information for the other."